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The Next Big Thing
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YenTheFirst



Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 2620
Location: Slightly less than crazy.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that is assuming they did understand fully the consequences, and what they did could be called a sin.

if a child runs out into the street it is not a sin.
when he is hit by the car, it is not a punishment for running into the street.
when the parent is unable to fix the child's problems, it isn't because the parent doesn't love the child.

bad analogy, i know. but it works mostly.
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TestTubeError



Joined: 07 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bad analogies do not work. That's why they are judged bad. Why someone would present an analogy they personally consider bad is beyond me.

Analogies are dangerous. They are rarely done well, and they all break down. One is more likely to hurt his own argument by using one.
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YenTheFirst



Joined: 18 Feb 2007
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Location: Slightly less than crazy.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, the format of that analogy is what I was going for.
I consider the first two lines a perfect analogy for my viewpoint

I consider the analogy 'bad' because of the last line.

in the analogy, the parent is limited, and lacks the capability to give the child health. With better medicine, this limitation may or may not be removed.

With God and Adam and Eve (or whatever), God is assumed to be all powerful. thus, He is not 'limited' by being unable to raise a dead child (which could not raise itself) the only limitation of God (which is self imposed), is that He will not force free will decisions.

thus, the analogy is bad, because the 'limitation' doesn't quite translate between the two cases.
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TestTubeError



Joined: 07 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another point for you believers who thrive on analogy (and they do because they can't even comprehend their own beliefs):

Trying to draw analogy between an all-powerful god and his creation and a human parent and his children is pointless and will not help your argument. Because of the critical differences between the popular defined nature of the gods and the known nature of human parents, a parallel cannot be drawn. As a parent, I don't have the ability to protect my child from physical harm, as I try to do every chance I can, 100% of the time, as the popularly-defined god can, supposedly. The dynamic MUST be different in the two types of relationships, since the gods don't protect children from harm 100% of the time.

Don't analogize gods to parents. Please.

If I could, I would protect all children from parents who would molest them. If there is a god, he does not do this, either because he can't or he won't.
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TestTubeError



Joined: 07 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the only limitation of God (which is self imposed), is that He will not force free will decisions.
So, the question remains: Why would he consider it an evil, punishable by eternal damnation, for people to make a free-will decision not to obey him? And the follow-on question: why did he make people such that they would do anything harmful if he himself would never do anything harmful? What's the difference? It's not free-will, is it?

Last edited by TestTubeError on Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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YenTheFirst



Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 2620
Location: Slightly less than crazy.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

but do we agree that the child running into the street is not a sin,
and the following death is not a punishment,
even assuming the existence of a God who could raise the dead child?

is God's choice to refrain from raising the dead child a punishment?
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TestTubeError



Joined: 07 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

???

Is kicking Adam and Eve out of the garden NOT a punishment? Was his kicking them out an accident resulting from them being too young to see the oncoming car?

I am talking about Mellowfish's Bible here.

What is your point?
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Kibate



Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MellowFish wrote:
And by the way, God did create perfect humans at least in the physical sense: Adam and Eve were immortal before they sinned.

pff, the physical aspect is the least im interrested in, we don't even know how immortal they were. Were they able to get sick, get shot etc. or were they just forever young?
And shouldn't a perfect physical human have "powers" like...transforming into other animals or something like that? Weren't humans originally supposed to be the master of all earth, water and animals? Maybe shrinking and growing is something a perfect physical human should have too. Maybe even wings, now that would be cool. Or no wings at all, maybe just a super brain(we use only about 10% of our current brain according to some scientist) which enables us to fly without anything else. Maybe a perfect human wouldn't have a body at all. ... Ok, i stop now...

MellowFish wrote:

The only "flaw" if you want to call it that was giving them free will. But imagine a world without free will: would you really want to live in such a place?

Since i don't believe in free-will it's kinda complicated to answer that, but i will try it anyway: Yes, if a perfect being wouldn't have free will, then he would like it, because he would be perfect, and perfect equals no sadness.

Yes, "perfect" is something that doesn't sound like it that could happen in 1million^1million years, but that's what "perfect" means. It's not great, not super, not the best thing "in the world" but "perfect".
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YenTheFirst



Joined: 18 Feb 2007
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Location: Slightly less than crazy.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no. no.

kibate wrote:
(we use only about 10% of our current brain according to some scientist)

not at all true. check out snopes

kibate wrote:
Maybe a perfect human wouldn't have a body at all.

then why bother calling them a 'human'?

kibate wrote:
and perfect equals no sadness.

since when?
perfect is based on the greek word meaning 'complete'. sadness is part of the human experience. The bible indicates even God and Jesus, (whom we will argue are 'perfect') experience sadness.

kibate wrote:
doesn't sound like it that could happen in 1million^1million years

same argument is used against evolution. problem is, 1million^1million years is a finite number, and will, therefore, eventually happen.
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Teh Digital Dragon



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Huh, when I saw this comic I wasn't thinking about the theological aspects so much as why didn't we have a "Badass of The Year" catergory in the sinnies?
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Brain.Damage



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 1336

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I agree with Slick, God is so silly.
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YenTheFirst



Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 2620
Location: Slightly less than crazy.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teh Digital Dragon wrote:
Huh, when I saw this comic I wasn't thinking about the theological aspects so much as why didn't we have a "Badass of The Year" catergory in the sinnies?


next year, I guess
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Brain.Damage



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's been very... God orientated lately.

What ever happened to social observations?

And I don't just mean the romantic ones.
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Secret



Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 5429

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tat got sacreligion?
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Twister87
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A sack of religion, maybe?
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