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That_Guy



Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 9
Location: A place

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trampstamp is a she...
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Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mouse is also a she.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nathan wrote:
Trampstamp wrote:
Yes, animals kill each other, for reasons; territory, food, mates, and if they are group animals, for their pack, this is done for them to live, yet animals are not sadistic and cruel, they simply kill for survival.
Humans have this odd habit of wanting to kill each other for no reasons or for loosely put together reasons that really have no other purpose rather than destroying something. My example: the multiple homicides in an Amish school.

The fact humans can write poetry does not balance out our resource wasting, homicidal tendencies, or perhaps I misunderstand your reference, in which case I apologise. From what I understand, my response is; we are still a useless species, regardless of art, or anything of the sort.


But animals, kill each other not necessarily "as" readily as you might like to want us to believe what you say about it; for is it not also true that the butterfly has not and does not seek to kill other butterflies and, does this not indicate that since one never sees butterflies kill each other in acts of self-preservation, as you claim animals do for survival, that those animals do not then kill at all? Why do you feel it is nessecary to indicate the point of view that says that animals must be cruel when this is not true at all? Humans you see, cannot see things that are not within there predefined expectations of what they have seen before, so when you say that animals are violent you are saying you see they're actions as violent and murderous; even if you seek to attempt a defense for the reason of this murder which you call "survival"; when they are not, but that is a part of what you expect to see because of anthropomorphimistic tendencies on the part of humans, who are unique in this act, unlike any animal we have ever witnessed. My example: would a gopher rape and emotionally abuse a vole? Somehow I think not.

We must not forget the butterfly: for it is a prescious teacher of the natural which is good, and cannot be argued. If you think animals cannot write poetry then you obviously have never owned a dolphin.


I love you, Nathan.
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Willem



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is probably the most frustrating and stupid argument I've ever read on the entire internet. Granted, I've not read the entire internet.

And before you pat yourself on the back, Trampstamp and That_guy, you were the ones bringing in most of the stupidity. I won't bother saying anything about That_guy, because you'd have to be blind to miss his stupidity. No, I'm going to talk about Trampstamp, who at least has ideals and isn't doing this just because she likes to argue.

I'll start with the mini-war here.

Quote:
Second, do not call me stupid, EVER. You do not know me; proof being the stupid comments; second, I gave a reasoned, logical answer, stop being a fucking bitch. I will admit there may be holes in my OPINION, but that is the same with EVERYONE.


You do not know me, is not a valid argument. We say you are stupid based on what you post here. And in fact, we do not even say you are stupid, but we say you are saying stupid things. There's a difference.
You did gave a reasoned, logical answer. True. But that doesn't mean it's correct or in any way not stupid. Your logic might be different than my logic. We are simply pointing out the flaws in your argument. In this case, we found many flaws. So, we should be allowed to point them out.
Also, I must say you're being a bit of a hypocrite. We can't call you stupid, but you can call mouse a bitch and you've called (maybe not literally) her stupid several times. You may be able to explain this by saying "She started it and then the gloves came off" or something like that, but that's just not going to cut it. If you want to be treated with respect, act respectfully towards others.

So, remarks like this:

Quote:
That last bit made sense; do I need to use smaller words?


Quote:
Do not believe it go to you library and read a book. Thank you.


Quote:
the fact you can't connect the whole of what I said makes me wonder how you got through Socials, history, science and anything else involving reading in school.


Quote:
Fuck off mouse, learn some tolerance and accept other people's views then get back at me.


shouldn't have been in your post. (There were more, even.)

Quote:
I do take my self seriously, I am a serious person. I am calm to be honest, it is just mouse's assessment of what I said was rather irritating, as well as the narrowmindedness in this topic.
However I give up, it is silly for me to combat in this discussion anymore, seeing as how I seem to stand alone...except for That_Guy, but he makes a mockery out of himself so I am overlooking him.


You have already pointed out that we were having a discussion. That's correct. mouse and all the others were having a discussion with you. It's not because they do not agree with you and because they put forward arguments that you don't agree with (notice how I say: "you don't agree with" instead of "aren't correct"), that they're being narrowminded.

You are standing alone, yes, because of several reasons
1) You aren't being very nice, without reason. You were the first one to start calling someone a bitch, I believe.
2) We don't agree with you. Most people won't agree with you. You say things that aren't true. I'm sorry, but we will try and prove (or at least convince you) that you are wrong.
3) You seem to look down on us. We don't like that. Because, as we don't know you, you don't know us. You have no right to look down on us. There are some amazingly smart people on this forum, yet you call them stupid and immature because they don't agree with you.

Quote:
To those who made arguments, thank you for at least arguing and not insulting me...too much(I've read other forum topics and have seen the brutality that can arise here).
It has been interesting. I apologise for my mudslinging, and the spelling errors.


"To those who made arguments": so, everyone? I'm not sure who did nothing but insult you. Except maybe Secret.

Oh, no worries. We're quite used to people mudslinging, here. At least you know that this is what you did. In future debates, could you refrain from doing it? You'll find it easier to "win" the discussion.

Quote:
However please, do not call me stupid. My intelligence is the only thing I have pride in,


Good! I'm always happy to hear someone being proud of their intelligence. Don't become arrogant, though. Intelligent people tend to become arrogant and this mostly stops any debates from actually happening.

I'm not sure where you were called stupid, though. Your arguments were called stupid, but I'm not sure if you, yourself, were called stupid.

Quote:
Alright,I do not know you so let me rephrase. What you did was immature, you yourself are not immature, or at least this being the internet, I can not say for certain your personality, immature or otherwise.


Great! You get it. Hmm. Some of my previous points are a bit useless, now. Still, I'll leave them.

Quote:
Alrighty, Arc.

You win.

Happy?


He's not trying to "win". He's trying to show you his point of view. Don't try to reduce what he is saying to an effort to win the argument.

Quote:
Thick skin? Is being egged at school and still attending every class, thick enough? I only have serious problems with being called stupid, could you please refrain.


I'm sure a lot of people were picked on in school. Ironically, in elementary school, I was picked on for being smart. I also don't like being stupid, but I won't let it get in the way of a discussion, if what I said could actually be seen as stupid. I'll let it slide and continue to argue. I'll also think about what I said earlier, to see if I wasn't actually being stupid. It's not wrong to admit you were wrong.


In a way, I'm like you. I too start an argument with the thought that I'm right and everybody else is wrong. This leads me to "win" most of the arguments I have (Maybe not on the internet, because that's different) or to piss the other person off.
It's good that you believe in something and are willing to stick by it, but you can't shut yourself off to other people's arguments and brush them aside as being wrong.

Please, just relax. Read your own posts. Then read the other posts. You'll find that the others were trying to have an argument with you. In an argument, you'll have to try and stay away from ad hominems and such. If someone else uses them, ignore it and continue to stay calm. You'll gain the moral high ground, so to speak.

You don't sound stupid to me. You sound confused and a bit narrowminded, even though you don't mean to be.

I'll post my arguments to the actual debate in a different post, to keep things clean and because I don't want this discussion to die, just because of some disagreement.
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Keign



Joined: 22 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trampstamp wrote:
However you are correct I have no idea of your intent. I doubt you will tell me either,

The intent of my posts was never to argue. I'd much rather make just enough of a point that my 'opponent' will proceed to argue with themselves on the matter. I can't convince anyone of anything, they have to do it in their own mind. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. *shrug*
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Willem



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About this whole Humans versus Nature thing.

Quote:
Well humans as species can be compared against other species that have yet to develop the tendency to kill one another randomly for their own gain, rather than the good of the group, pack, community, etc.


1) "to kill one randomly for their own gain" Animals do this too. This is pretty obvious. They kill for food, territory, mating-rights and all that. That's killing for their own gain.
2) "killing for the good of the group" This does not include the millions of animals that don't live in groups. And even if they do live in groups, this does not mean that everything they kill, they kill for the group.
In fact, they might even kill someone that's a part of the group. To become the dominant male, a lion may kill, or at least chase away, the current dominant male.

Quote:
Or have yet to destory the planet for resources and other such means.


We are not trying to destroy the planet. In fact, we're trying to save it. You can't say that we suck because we have, by accident, made some things in the world worse.

Quote:
Yes, animals kill each other, for reasons; territory, food, mates, and if they are group animals, for their pack, this is done for them to live, yet animals are not sadistic and cruel, they simply kill for survival.
Humans have this odd habit of wanting to kill each other for no reasons or for loosely put together reasons that really have no other purpose rather than destroying something. My example: the multiple homicides in an Amish school.


Animals are sadistic and cruel. Both cats and orcas have been brought up.
Some animals are simply sadistic and cruel too.
Humans kill for various reasons, but mostly, they also kill for survival. It's not as obvious as with animals, but it's still for survival.
In the end, us humans kill for exactly the same reasons as animals. Be it for food (money), territory (We feel unsafe, we attack), mating partners or anything else.

There is only one type of killing where there isn't a reason. (At least, there isn't a reason we can see) And even then, we can find it in nature. I'm talking about people who are, quite simply, crazy. They're a bit wrong in the head and kill. They're just like rabid wolves, who also attack anything they see. They are the exceptions. I doubt we should classify the entire human race as murderers, if only a few crazy people actually kill without reason.

Quote:
Violence is sometimes needed for survival. Not always, "flight" works too. You are anthropomorphizing animals too much, keep in mind, on the rape thing, that animal mating rituals and similar are much different from humans. (Rape is for pleasure for the one who commits the rape. Humans and dolphins are the only animals that have sex for pleasure.) Therefore, that rape thing really makes no sense, but I can see what you are trying to say.


Rape isn't just for pleasure. There are hundreds of reasons why rape might happen.

Also, even though I don't like Wikipedia

On the same page. Doesn't really seem to have a reason.

Quote:
they are a small amount compared to billions of people that still are the most worthless, blood lusting, dirty, resource sucking, animal species on the planet.


I'm slightly confused as to how we are "worthless". You could argue that all species are actually worthless. They serve no purpose, neither do we.

Oh, and billions of people who are blood lusting?
Oh dear. Well, we don't all like to kill. Most of us actually don't do it! I know! Amazing!

Quote:
The rocket and the sun idea seems like a decent solution.


We solve violence with violence?
In any case, that_guy didn't see the difference between necessary violence and unnecessary violence. Because, most of our violence is necessary. And even though unnecessary violence is rare, we can't get rid of it with stupid solutions like this.

It's not like every human commits unnecessary violence, anyway. That's like killing off every wolf in the world, because one attacked you.

Quote:
Hey, you may have missed it but I never said animals are perfect. They can be cruel, but humans take the gold, silver and bronze is mindless homicide of others, animals, and the planet.


Actually, you did say animals weren't cruel.
And as I've said before, we don't kill mindlessly.

Quote:

animals, breed to procreate, it had been scientifically proven that humans and dolphins experience pleasure. other animals, it just happens. It is a reflex from pheromones.


It hasn't been proved, though.

Quote:
Murderers, do not have reason, Jealousy, is rarely about killing to keep a mate, mostly it is about selfish human want, i.e.: Ruth Ellis.


The ones that don't have reason, are crazy. Jealousy is about killing to keep a mate. We are unaware that is the reason, though, because it's something subconsious.

Quote:
Many murderers kill people randomly, those they do not even know.
Example: 9/11, Virginia tech, school shootings in Columbine, Montréal, Tennessee...etc. Random killings and rape. Robert Pickton... the US army, everyone in the bloody war on terror.


Ah! They might kill randomly, but they don't kill without reason. They have reasons, be it security or whatever primal urge drives them to do so.
I doubt most animals pick out their prey from the animals they know.


Quote:
Moreover, yes humanity is on a downward slide, are you fucking blind. Can you read a bloody newspaper? Watch the news, learn something.


I take you're not an editor of a news paper, or you'd know that most of the news is crap. We are actually improving. The fact is, news coverage has just increased.
Example: Youth crime here in Belgium has gone down over the last few years. Yet, people think it's gone up. Why? Because everytime someone is stabbed, they report it on the news.

We have massively improved. Plenty of examples have been given.

Quote:
Everything you said still happens,
I will admit slavery is not so widely practiced anymore, but it is still there, in South America, and Africa, and parts of Asia.
Child labour
Do not forget war for oil,
CLIMATE CHANGE
the still occurring effects of Nuclear technology (Hiroshima)
The collapse of intelligent society
The perversion of society (I.e. massive kiddie porn rings that go across all nearly every inhabited continent)
Corruption of government
Etc


But we are working on making things right. We're trying to stop slavery and child labour.
The war for oil is a war for survival, and thus can't be seen as something that doesn't happen in nature.
Nuclear technology isn't bad. It's the future.
Climate change. We're trying to change it. If you don't see this, you're blind.
The collapse of intelligent society? That one suprised me. Explain this, please.
The perversion of society? Hmm! Kiddie porn rings! Yes, we've banned this. It used to be legal and common, don'tchaknow. And guess what, animals are pretty fucking perverted too. It's nature! Surprised

Quote:
WE are doing nothing to protect the environment, No one follows the Kyoto protocol, all attempts are just media garbage, and no one has done anything.


We are actually trying to. Maybe not in the US, but here in Europe, it's one of the big themes. We follow the Kyote protocol, but it's not easy. We're working towards it, but we can't just change everything in a year or so.
People have done things. Surely, you can find examples of this on your own.

Quote:
Religious tolerances...do not make me laugh. Look at the Middle East and western society. Do not go on with but they are keeping the peace, bullshit, they are simply forcing their beliefs.


Look, if 20% of the world is religiously tollerant, it'll be better than it was before, when 100% was religiously intollerant.
Most people *are* religiously tollerant, but they don't show up on the news.

Quote:
No one is fighting diseases, it is a fucking facade. Cancer has been cured a few times over; the money is just too great, same with anything else.


Why would anyone want to hold back a cancer cure? Nobody is fighting diseases? I can't believe you're saying this! Do you honestly believe there's a conspiracy to keep cancer and AIDS cures and such away from the people? Why would anyone do that? Don't answer "Money.". This answer would be wrong.


Ugh. I'm a bit tired of this and that's why I've only replied to the most obvious mistakes. I'm sure I could continue, but I'll probably die, if I do.
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TestTubeError



Joined: 07 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Humans, simply do suck.

LOL! Then go live with the animals that you think are the least suck and stop using the internet. The internet is a human thing.

You're not slamming humanity while at the same time enjoying the fruits of humanity, are you?
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<3 willem.

i've just been realizing - i've been around this forum long enough to watch people mature and learn the debating skills to present their opinions in clear, rational, and even polite fashion...that's pretty cool.

see - even in the sinfest forum, you can find reasons not to give up on the human race!
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Michael



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes a few gulls flock around a buzzard - just out of its reach - and then just hang about and make noise for a while. The gulls don't gain anything but it stops the buzzard from hunting.

It's not cruel exactly, but its a pretty mean joke
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Brain.Damage



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 1336

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xenophanes -

The Ethiops say that their gods are flat-nosed and black,
While the Thracians say that theirs have blue eyes and red hair.
Yet if cattle or horses or lions had hands and could draw,
And could sculpture like men, then the horses would draw their gods
Like horses, and cattle like cattle; and each they would shape
Bodies of gods in the likeness, each kind, of their own.

In my opinion it's stupid for humans to assume anything about nature because we always relate it strictly to ourselves, we have nothing else really to compare to.

To force our version of the word cruelty as a label to the actions of another species is futile, because our rules don't apply to them.

Humanity is a foolish thing to bring into a conversation about non humans.
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Funkentelechy



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gulls are cool as fuck
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Dro



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Werner Herzog wrote:
Life in the oceans must be sheer hell. A vast, merciless hell of permanent and immediate danger. So much of a hell that during evolution some species - including man - crawled, fled onto some small continents of solid land, where the Lessons of Darkness continue.
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Phen



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can't stop now! We need to reach 7 pages so it's be 7/7/7/7 and unicorns and pink ponies will infest the forum and everyone will be happy!

If you screw up, another 69 pages will be needed to appease the gods.
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Dro



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kind rats:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/10/science/10rat.html?_r=1&ref=science&oref=slogin

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Rat to Rat, Kindness Takes Hold
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By NICHOLAS BAKALAR
Published: July 10, 2007
Rats may be more caring and selfless than their reputation suggests. Or at least they can be very kind to each other, even to rats they have never met before.

Swiss researchers put pairs of female rats — they were littermates — in a cage, separating them with a wire mesh. In one half of the cage, a rat could pull a lever attached to a baited tray that would deliver food to her sister, but not to herself. Each rat was trained in alternate sessions, first as a recipient of food, then as a provider. The sisters learned to cooperate, and they pulled significantly more often when their littermate was present than when the other half of the cage was empty.

Then the researchers put rats who had recently been assisted by their partners, and rats who had not recently been helped, in with unfamiliar and unrelated rats. Those who had recently been helped were about 21 percent more likely to pull the lever for the new partner.

This was not just ordinary operant conditioning or reinforcement, the researchers maintain, because the rats were never rewarded for their own behavior, only that of others. Because the rats were unfamiliar and unrelated, there was no family interaction involved. The only plausible explanation, they believe, is that the rats had developed what they call generalized reciprocity — that is, they were generous even with an unknown partner because another rat had just been kind to them.

The study’s lead author, Claudia Rutte, a behavioral ecologist at the University of Bern in Switzerland, warned against drawing conclusions about humans from work with rats. “We’re interested in the evolution of cooperation,” she said, “but our research is about animals, really, not people.”

Still, the paper, published in the July issue of PLoS Biology, cites previous research showing that humans act the same way — people who have been helped in some way are more likely to help others immediately afterward.

Incidentally, these rats were not the usual cute, pink-eyed white lab rats. They were bred from wild Rattus norvegicus — the brown or gray Norway rat depressingly familiar to residents of many American cities.

Is it time to stop using the word “rat” as an insult? Maybe. Apparently even a nasty-looking rat can be possessed of sterling character.
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Twister87
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You dirty rat, you killed my brother.
You dirty brother, you killed my rat.
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