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ISRAEL
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Uncle Taylorbell



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3191
Location: Northern England

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amilam wrote:
Uncle Taylorbell wrote:
kame wrote:
Yes, it's not all about religion, but religion is certainly one of the root cause.


You are so fucking wrong it's unbelievable. What, you think Israel is shelling Lebanon because they ain't Jews? You think the rest of the MiddleEast hates Israel because they ain't Muslims?

Pick up a fucking history book sometime, man.


Um I would agree that people talking about a religious World War are nuts, but he just said the religious tension in the state of the Middle East in general was a major factor, which is pretty obvious. Bland maybe, but still.


A link detailing Hezbollah repeatedly using U.N. positions to fire from:
here.

I think people should be careful to pick their fights. There is plenty to be upset about regarding Israels actions without maintaining they are intentionally attacking the U.N.


No, there is no theological root to the violence in the middle east. They're not arguing over doctrine. They're arguing over land.
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Amilam



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well yes, but what was the motiff behind the mass immigration of Jews to said land? Why so much violence over this particular stretch of land.
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Uncle Taylorbell



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amilam wrote:
Well yes, but what was the motiff behind the mass immigration of Jews to said land? Why so much violence over this particular stretch of land.


Okay, okay, I see what you're saying. It's hardly an ecumenical matter though.
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Bart



Joined: 22 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the information Amiliman, i didn't know about the Hezbollah using U.N. postions to fire from. This does indeed change the whole case and would be a good reason to bombard that position.
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Major Tom



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jinx wrote:

Also, FTR, I don't understand the opposition by the US to an immediate cease-fire. I accept that a cease-fire is not enough, but why oppose it as an opening move?


you answer, sir.

apparently, we have a 'moral janitor' in the whitehouse
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Bush Sees a Chance for Change to Sweep Mideast

By CHRISTINE HAUSER
Published: July 28, 2006

President Bush, vowing to turn conflict in the Middle East into a “moment of opportunity” for broader change, said today that Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice would be dispatched to the region on Saturday with a plan for a multinational force that would help Lebanon’s army take over from Hezbollah in the southern part of the country.

Bush spoke this afternoon at a press conference with Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain, who called the conflict a “complete tragedy” with innocent Lebanese and Israeli lives lost, people displaced, and a “terrible setback” for Lebanon’s democracy.

Mr. Bush said that the “root cause” of the problem was Hezbollah.

“For the sake of long term stability we’ve got to deal with this issue now,” Mr. Bush said.

Both leaders called for the need to impose United Nations resolution 1559, which calls for disarming Hezbollah and deploying the Lebanese Army to the border.

The two leaders, who earlier talked privately at the White House, announced what they described as a practical plan to try to stop the violence and address what they saw as the underlying cause — Hezbollah militancy — of the current conflict, as well as criticizing Iranian and Syrian support for the group.

“This is a moment of intense conflict in the Middle East,” Mr. Bush said. “Yet our aim is to turn it into a moment of opportunity and a chance for broader change in the region.”

Mr. Blair said that the plan includes sending Ms. Rice back to the region on Saturday, and bringing forward a United Nations meeting to Monday about an international stabilization force that will allow Lebanon’s government to deploy its own army in the south.

A multinational force should be dispatched “quickly,” Mr. Bush said, to also facilitate relief, help displaced people, and begin reconstruction in Lebanon.

The two men spoke on the 17th day of fighting between Israel and Hezbollah. Today, Israeli airstrikes and artillery pounded Lebanon, while Hezbollah rockets struck mostly in northern Israel.

In Lebanon, Hezbollah said that it had fired longer-range rockets today and struck an Israeli city south of the region it has been hitting regularly since the conflict started on July 12.

A statement on the Arabic-language Web site of Al Manar television, which is owned by Hezbollah, said that five Khaybar-1 rockets struck the city of Afula, which is more than 30 miles from the Lebanese border.

It said the rockets were fired in response to the “Zionist aggression” and accused Israel of deliberately aiming bombs and missiles at civilians.

The Israeli military and the police said that five rockets hit open areas near Afula but did not cause injuries. The powerful rocket is believed to be capable of carrying about200 pounds of explosive

While it was not the first time that a rocket has landed that far south in Israel, only a few have traveled that distance.

In a multinational conference on the Middle East crisis in Rome on Wednesday, Ms. Rice successfully argued for language in a joint communique calling for a “sustainable” cease-fire including political elements, rather than an immediate one, a stance that had the effect of buying time for Israel to pursue its military campaign against Hezbollah .

Israeli officials said later that in fact, the declaration gave Israel the world’s permission to continue strikes in Lebanon against Hezbollah targets.

But today, a State Department spokesman, Adam Ereli, said that such an interpretation of the Rome declaration was “outrageous,” and that the United States was working for a durable end to the conflict.

Israel’s government has approved call-ups for as many as 30,000 reserve troops, suggesting that it may be gearing up for a protracted battle. The country’s security cabinet nonetheless ruled out a major military escalation for now, opting to maintain a focus on wide-ranging airstrikes and limited ground incursions along the border.

At least 10 people were reported killed today in villages near the coastal town of Tyre in southern Lebanon, where Israeli airstrikes were most intense.

Israeli jets also hit several buildings near the town of Nabatiyeh, killing three people and wounding nine, according to Lebanese security officials cited by The Associated Press.

Israel unleashed an artillery barrage on roads and suspected Hezbollah posts in the hills and mountains of southeastern Lebanon. A base in the Bekaa Valley was also bombed.

The Israeli military said it carried out more than 180 aerial strikes in Lebanon during the 24-hour period that ended this morning, and there were no signs of a letup during the day today.

Hezbollah, meanwhile, maintained its rocket fire on northern Israel today. About 50 rockets hit northern Israel as of the afternoon, though only a few minor injuries were reported.

The Israeli military also said it has killed more than 200 Hezbollah militants since the fighting began with a cross-border raid on July 12. Hezbollah has given only occasional figures, putting the number at around 30.

The Lebanese government says that overall, more than 400 people have been killed, the vast majority of them civilians, and it believes that up to 200 more dead may still be buried under rubble.

Among the recent casualties were four unarmed United Nations observers.

Today, a United Nations official said there would be an investigation into why they were killed on Tuesday despite repeated warnings that the firing was coming too close to the observation post.

“Why did they go on firing?” said the deputy secretary general at the United Nations, Mark Malloch Brown, on CNN.

“Our role there is critical if there is to be some kind of ceasefire,” he said.

At the United Nations on Thursday, the Security Council adopted a statement that expressed shock and distress at the killings of the observers but avoided the direct criticism of Israel and its motives that had been in earlier drafts.

The issue has become a heated one at the United Nations because of initial claims on Tuesday night in Rome by Secretary General Kofi Annan that the attack may have been deliberate. He later accepted Israel’s assurances that it was not deliberate.

In a Security Council briefing on Wednesday, United Nations officials told of their daylong efforts to stop Israeli attacks on the outpost in southern Lebanon where the men — from China, Austria, Finland and Canada — were killed.

Today, a United Nations spokesman said that eight unarmed United Nations military observers have been temporarily relocated from border positions in southern Lebanon for safety reasons.

“The two remaining positions in Marwaheen and Markaba were temporarily relocated. They are manned by eight unarmed observers,” said Milos Strugar, a spokesman for the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon, according to Agence France-Presse.

Greg Myre contributed reporting fromJerusalem andHelene Cooper contributed reporting from Kuala Lumpur.
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Jinx



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major Tom wrote:
Jinx wrote:

Also, FTR, I don't understand the opposition by the US to an immediate cease-fire. I accept that a cease-fire is not enough, but why oppose it as an opening move?


you[r] answer, sir.

apparently, we have a 'moral janitor' in the whitehouse


Thanks, but that doesn't really answer my question. Saying we want a "durable" cease-fire doesn't explain to me why an "immediate" cease-fire can't be a starting point.

I accept the govt's position that "just" a cease-fire is not enough. I don't understand why they think it's not a good first step.

Of course, if it's to give Israel time to pound Hezbollah, I can understand why they wouldn't say that. I'd just like to hear how they're rationalizing it.
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Amilam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Senate majority leader Bill Frist was on Hannity and Colmes and when asked why the United States was opposed to an immediate cease fire he answered that he felt there needed to be international pressure (but not the U.N.) to put down Hezbollah. What I thought was truly pie in the sky thinking was his demand that Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia start toting U.S. policy. So yeah when hell freezes over. If you look at the talking heads for the Right, you see agreement that Israel is doing America a favor by taking out the “Islama-fascists”. NeoCons will tell you we’re already fighting WWIII so what difference is a few weeks more of fighting if it means killing terrorists without having to act ourselves.

On a side note am I the only one who gets chills when I hear Republicans talking so highly of Regan’s foreign policies of regime change? Have we really gotten to the point where the Iran Contra and the brutal propping up of South American dictatorships has become publicly acceptable policy?
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andrew



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

6 Shot, 1 Fatally at Seattle Jewish Center

ABC News wrote:
SEATTLE Jul 28, 2006 (AP)— A man walked into a Jewish organization Friday afternoon and opened fire, killing one person and injuring at least five others before he was arrested, officials said.

The gunman, who employees said claimed to be a Muslim angry at Israel, forced his way through the security door at the Jewish Federation after an employee had punched in her security code, said Marla Meislin-Dietrich, a co-worker who was not at the building at the time.

Staff members said they overheard him saying "'I am a Muslim American, angry at Israel,' before opening fire on everyone," Meislin-Dietrich said. "He was randomly shooting at everyone."

(more)
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Sam



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 8:00 am    Post subject: oh god Reply with quote

Well, here we go again.

A merry go round would be an apt metaphor, except I consider merry go rounds to be fun.
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The gunman, who employees said claimed to be a Muslim angry at Israel, forced his way through the security door at the Jewish Federation after an employee had punched in her security code, said Marla Meislin-Dietrich, a co-worker who was not at the building at the time.

Staff members said they overheard him saying "'I am a Muslim American, angry at Israel,'

That made me do a double-take.
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Amilam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those seem like incredibly bland words before going on a shooting spree. I think Samuel Jackson had the right idea on how to do it with style.
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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's not a movie and it wasn't some actor.

it was some demented shit who shot six people.
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suds



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 107

PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<sarcasm> Can't we just make the British sort out the whole mess they started 50 years ago? (Make em do it to India/Pakistan too.) </sarcasm>

On a more serious note, I believe that the use of religion in whatever form for political purposes is despicable. That said, <sarcasm> my 100-thousand Gods could pwn your loner. </sarcasm>
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braindrain



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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Location: on the run...

PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fear that none of us, at least and especcially not me, can really seperate propaganda from real information in this conflict.

All factions use very strong language and speak in absolutes which is quite normal in war time propaganda. All sides want to install themselves as good actors while all other actors are bad, and I have the impression that even many people in the area are not able to integrate all aspects of the situation.

What I want to say is simply that, as somebody else said already: This war is not about religion...

Somebody said it was about land, but I think this is still a superficial answer...

This conflict is about water and ... money ( as always ) ... Sad

As far as I know most of the areas the Israelian Government is reluctant to leave are those with geological aspects concerning water reservoirs. As you may know there is a crisis in the ME everytime anybody builds a damm....

Money... as far as I know Israel owes money to Palastine, and they are still paying it back even during this armed conflict...
And Israelian economy needs cheap Palastine labour... and Palastineans need jobs ...

Last but not least Propaganda is about uniting your people, to create that what Bun Bun does not like, to create a nation which behaves like a single entity... to achieve this you have to silence all voices of moderation and reasoning.

From this perspective the conflict is useful to all sides..., because the more people die the harder it gets for anybody to say cool down, without being regarded as a traitor... a phenomenon which could be observed in the USA after 9/11 for example ( classical examples are Northern Ireland and Spain ) but this is only hearsay because I am neither living in the USA nor the UK nor Spain... the last terrorists in this country were the Red Army Faction and thats only a childhood memory... but you had no fun in Germany during that times, a friend of mine was watched because he worked with Amnesty International ...
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's interesting to see this administration switch positions quickly as things get more bleak - last week there was no call for a ceasefire, this week Ms. Rice used the term at least four times in just the bits quoted by the NYTimes. Amazing what bombing Qana (for the second time) and killing five dozen innocent people will do to a strategy. As Lebanese begin to march in the streets of Beirut with slogans like "American bombs, Israeli planes, Arab cover," you return to thinking, "is this situation working or is it making Israel less safe?"

[Edit: for the sake of argument I should point out that I don't think the bombing of civilians was any more intentional than the bombing of the UN peacekeepers or the Red Cross ambulances. However, appearances matter, and these events work against establishing peace. Israel's main fault has been in relying so intensely on bombing Hezbollah when they know they are operating from within civilian areas. This only serves to support the cause of groups like Hezbollah among the people.]
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