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Sam
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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MsFrisby
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: a quiet little corner of crazy
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 Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:26 am Post subject: |
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kame
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 2580
Location: Alba Nuadh
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| Uncle Taylorbell wrote: | | kame wrote: | | Yes, it's not all about religion, but religion is certainly one of the root cause. |
You are so fucking wrong it's unbelievable. What, you think Israel is shelling Lebanon because they ain't Jews? You think the rest of the MiddleEast hates Israel because they ain't Muslims?
Pick up a fucking history book sometime, man. |
Someone has backed me up on this already... but I've got to say this: You think religious fundamentalism has nothing to do with what is going on there? You don't believe it's a root cause for what's occuring? I've read the history. Diaspora occured in what would be known as Israel because it was easier to sell a Jewish homeland when they tied it together with a prophesized Biblical return to Israel. Of course that's only really supposed to happen when another Messiah appears (another Noah, perhaps), but that didn't stop the leading Zionists of the day from using that, along with the rife anti-semitism of the day, to encourage Jews to imigrate to lands bought by Jews is Palestine. What the jews refused to take into account (it was brought up) was the fact that Muslim's wouldn't take too kindly to a bunch of Jews settling in 'their' homeland. You have the massive flood of immigration after World War II, the various wars, the various times of peace, and you have today.
So in the end we're both right. This is a fight over land, but a fight where the root cause was using religion to encourage people to move somewhere where instead of being able to live in peace, they will have to defend their very right to exist in the face of overwhelming hatred. That's the exception I take, you're welcome to dispute it all you wish.
And no, I'm not forgetting the fact that every major allied power really didn't offer much alternative for displaced Jewish during WW II, so they were leary of accepting any refuge from people who turned them away while their families were being killed. I'm just limiting the argument to what Uncle Taylorbell challenged my opinion on.
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bi-chromaticism is the extraordinary belief that there exists only two options
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where one is completely superior to the other. |
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Major Tom
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 7564
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:21 am Post subject: |
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disagreeing with this:
| kame wrote: | | religion is certainly one of the root cause{s}. |
is very different than saying this:
| kame wrote: | | religious fundamentalism has nothing to do with what is going on there |
and saying this:
| kame wrote: | | {religion}'s a root cause for what's occuring |
is very, very different than saying this:
| kame wrote: | | This is a fight over land, but a fight where the root cause was using religion to encourage people |
you are caught up in your own rhetorical traces.
unless of course you equate, uncategorically, religious extremism, or fundamentalism, with "religion" itself and/or believe that islam and judaism are each, fundamentally, a religion of hatred. |
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kame
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 2580
Location: Alba Nuadh
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| Major Tom wrote: | disagreeing with this:
| kame wrote: | | religion is certainly one of the root cause{s}. |
is very different than saying this:
| kame wrote: | | religious fundamentalism has nothing to do with what is going on there |
and saying this:
| kame wrote: | | {religion}'s a root cause for what's occuring |
is very, very different than saying this:
| kame wrote: | | This is a fight over land, but a fight where the root cause was using religion to encourage people |
you are caught up in your own rhetorical traces.
unless of course you equate, uncategorically, religious extremism, or fundamentalism, with "religion" itself and/or believe that islam and judaism are each, fundamentally, a religion of hatred. |
Okay, finally, and forever, let me state what I think, as a gross oversimplification, of course:
Judaism, Islam and the fundamentalism it inspires through its own doctrines is one of the root causes of the tensions in the middle east. The xenophobia of both doctrines is highlighed by the following two paragraphs:
Exodus 20:1-3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Qu'Ran 2.213 (All) people are a single nation; so Allah raised prophets as bearers of good news and as warners, and He revealed with them the Book with truth, that it might judge between people in that in which they differed; and none but the very people who were given it differed about it after clear arguments had come to them, revolting among themselves; so Allah has guided by His will those who believe to the truth about which they differed and Allah guides whom He pleases to the right path.
Two social groups whose central religious tenet is that their God is the one true god, no, there's no possibility of conflict arising there.
Do I think the middle east would be a better place without religion, and religious fundamentalism (people seem to want the distinction made clear)? Yeah, I do, does that make me innately anti-religion? Yes, it does. Not only do I believe in not worshipping a mythos where little, no, or contradictory phsyical or reliable theoretical evidence exists. I think that anyone who does is either self-deluded, or brainwashed by their societal group. I also believe that the root causes for our actions can be explained by science, and that science offers us the option of behaving in a moral manner without referring to a mythological hell to punish people who do not lead moral lives.
Am I biased? Sure, hell, we're all biased. Is there more to the central issue than religion, of course? But what is Hamas? Let's quote their motto:
"God is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Qur'an its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of God is the loftiest of its wishes."
How about Israel... just what do they stand for, officially speaking? Let's try their declaration of nationality:
...the Land of Israel, was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and political identity was shaped. Here they first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national and universal significance and gave to the world the eternal Book of Books.
Wow, two societal groups who both believe that the land in which Israel exists was given to them by their god. Jesus Christ on a stick, that's not going to lead to anything! 
And yes, before you all chime in, I understand there's more to it than religion today, but I still believe religion to be the root cause of the bullshit in the middle east.
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bi-chromaticism is the extraordinary belief that there exists only two options
each polar opposite to each other
where one is completely superior to the other. |
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Uncle Taylorbell
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3191
Location: Northern England
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| kame wrote: | | Two social groups whose central religious tenet is that their God is the one true god, no, there's no possibility of conflict arising there. |
It's the same God. I shall try not to be argumentative, but it is the same God. They worship the same God. There mythos was elucidated my different prophets, but it's the same God. In fact, its so the same God that when pagan Arabs ran Mohammed out of Mecca and into Medina, the only place he could find solace with his people was with the Jews. They prayed together, side by side ... and nearly a thousand years later when the Jews were expelled from most of Europe, there was only one place, and one people, who would take them in: the Muslims of North Africa and Arabia.
And they didn't just co-exist. They co-operated, and formed mutually beneficial societies, that worked, for hundreds of years. Longer than Muslim societies, both secular and religious, have been cold and hot warring with Israel. About twenty times longer than Israel has been 'Israel', in fact.
(Fun fact, most Orthodox Jews in Europe, especially with the Rabbinical colleges, found the mooted idea of a Zionist state distasteful and irreligious, and made known their objections loudly and clearly).
Seriously, they aren't fighting over religion. They are, I credit, fighting over land which has special significance for both of them, and this significance is often as not a religious significance (it's also often land of a secular historical, or economic, significance). But Israel isn't bombing Lebonan because they're Mohammedans. Palestine isn't kidnapping Israeli's because they're Jewish. |
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Major Tom
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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kame
you are speaking from bias and solely from bias, fitting small pieces together poorly and claiming a picture is made, ignoring the gaps, the holes and the rest.
i can understand now why you focus on the fundamentalists and the extremists. you share their love for absolutisms and identify with their fear of those who are different.
none of you look for reason, only blame. |
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Dogen
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: PDX
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| kame wrote: | | Judaism, Islam and the fundamentalism it inspires through its own doctrines is one of the root causes of the tensions in the middle east. The xenophobia of both doctrines is highlighed by the following two paragraphs: |
Well... someone is expressing a little xenophobia. I don't really want to jump on the dogpile you're currently under but historically Judaism and Islam are not xenophobic. The current expansion of Islamic extremism is a relatively recent phenomenon with traceable roots.
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"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. I’ll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman |
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mouse
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: under the bed
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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they also don't necessarily inspire fundamentalism. i know a number of jews and muslims who are anything but fundamentalist in their viewpoint.
i think where religion enters in is that you have people who are willing to use the concept of "our religion" to get people worked up to attack the "nonbelievers". i wonder how many of the followers of these demogogues really understand the religion they are following - as taylorbell says, the muslims used to have very good relations with the jews, and as i understand it, are told to respect all "people of the law" (which includes christians as well). it's like a number of christian fundamentalist demogogues - they pick out a few bits and pieces, beat them into their followers heads, and then insist that they go just with what they are told. it's a good way to unify people and give them something important to fight about - even when what they believe they are fighting for is not the the truth.
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Major Tom
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| mouse wrote: | | i think where religion enters in is that you have people who are willing to use the concept of "our religion" to get people worked up to attack the "nonbelievers". i wonder how many of the followers of these demogogues really understand the religion they are following - as taylorbell says, the muslims used to have very good relations with the jews, and as i understand it, are told to respect all "people of the law" (which includes christians as well). it's like a number of christian fundamentalist demogogues - they pick out a few bits and pieces, beat them into their followers heads, and then insist that they go just with what they are told. it's a good way to unify people and give them something important to fight about - even when what they believe they are fighting for is not the the truth. |
this also works for presidents.
to a T |
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Dogen
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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Works for anything, unfortunately... pick a cause, find a group whose sympathies you can manipulate, wrap your cause in appropriate rhetoric and voila. Extremism. Terrorists. One-issue voters. Ebonics. Whatever.
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"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. I’ll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman |
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Major Tom
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| not everybody can wrap them all up in one |
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kame
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 2580
Location: Alba Nuadh
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| Uncle Taylorbell wrote: | | kame wrote: | | Two social groups whose central religious tenet is that their God is the one true god, no, there's no possibility of conflict arising there. |
It's the same God. I shall try not to be argumentative, but it is the same God. They worship the same God. There mythos was elucidated my different prophets, but it's the same God. In fact, its so the same God that when pagan Arabs ran Mohammed out of Mecca and into Medina, the only place he could find solace with his people was with the Jews. They prayed together, side by side ... and nearly a thousand years later when the Jews were expelled from most of Europe, there was only one place, and one people, who would take them in: the Muslims of North Africa and Arabia. |
I'm aware they're the same God, which makes the religious strife in the area all the more painful. But I've got to take issue with one thing, and I apologize if I'm in the wrong here. But when Britain and the newly formed UN partitioned off Israel... wasn't there a war?
| Uncle Taylorbell wrote: |
And they didn't just co-exist. They co-operated, and formed mutually beneficial societies, that worked, for hundreds of years. Longer than Muslim societies, both secular and religious, have been cold and hot warring with Israel. About twenty times longer than Israel has been 'Israel', in fact.
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That much I understand as well, but any peaceful co-existence that occurs (and is occuring now) is overshadowed by the tension and continuing violence in the area.
I understand that for the general run of people in the middle-east, they'd wish the fundamentalism would go away so they can live their lives.
I also understand that using Christian, Hebrew, or Islam as a blank statement, is a gross over-generalization. There are as many different definitions of religious practitioners as there people who practice religion. And extemism on all counts is usually a very minor percentage of the group as a whole.
| Uncle Taylorbell wrote: |
Seriously, they aren't fighting over religion. They are, I credit, fighting over land which has special significance for both of them, and this significance is often as not a religious significance (it's also often land of a secular historical, or economic, significance). But Israel isn't bombing Lebonan because they're Mohammedans. Palestine isn't kidnapping Israeli's because they're Jewish. |
Probably not, I'm sure the fact that the Mohammedans in Palestine have been ruled by the Israeli state for the last 57 years without proper representation might have something to do with it.
Religion on it's own, put in a proper context, harms no one. Put it into the hands of someone with a charasmatic personality with an axe to grind, give them access to a group of poor, under-educated people, and watch the hilarity ensue.
My conceit is that proper education in the value of a person's life (despite Iam Flemming's objections, you only live once) will go a long way to improving how we live it. Religion at it's heart is a personal thing, I just wish people would cut out the middle-man and realize that the basic good/bad is not the product of a capricious God, but of evolution and genetics. I personally think that living your life through the lens of a God who will forgive any sin, and promises you eternal life if you just follow their rules, is counter-productive to living a good life. As I've seen it in someone's sig, the reward for a good life, is a good life.
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bi-chromaticism is the extraordinary belief that there exists only two options
each polar opposite to each other
where one is completely superior to the other. |
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San Padrone
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 112
Location: Floriduh
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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kame...just stop. Many have gone the rounds with Tom, and you're one of the many that is in the 'losers' column.
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kame
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 2580
Location: Alba Nuadh
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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someone with my opinion and a better grounding in all this could argue this better. but I had the tools...
*shrug* I don't believe I'm a racist. But being an individualist is so damn hard.
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bi-chromaticism is the extraordinary belief that there exists only two options
each polar opposite to each other
where one is completely superior to the other. |
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