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11.08.07 - I Can't Change 3
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YenTheFirst



Joined: 18 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bun bun wrote:
I'm sorry, the correct answer was

Quote:
In the sentence "Green is green," the seemingly logical interpretation is p=p. Wittgenstein postulates, however, that the logical interpretation of this sentence is

where the extension of "N" is {things named "green"}, and the extension of "G" is {things that are green}.



Not to nitpick too too much, but would the extension of 'N' be all objects in the domain named "Green", or does the typical assumption of names in your system not respect case?
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Mr_Moustache



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pytheus wrote:
DeD CHiKn wrote:
Pytheus wrote:
I'm not going to play your little game.


But you will keep fueling the fire?


To answer, no. This will offically be my last post on this thread. My inital feeling that people wouldn't accept my ideas and bash me on them were correct. I didn't expect people to believe me, but at least have the maturity to discuss the topic in an adult manner. I admit I maybe wrong. But it wasn't something that merit such abusive behavoir. Just everything I've read aside from the bible had an angelic messenger.

I'm not a researcher or a proffessional in the feild of theology. We all draw our own conclusions from religion, each sees things a bit differently. People shouldn't be judged on their beliefs. Some really smart people have some silly ideas on religion. Religion is a personal journey of discovery, no answer is wrong or right. I don't use the bible so I don't consider it when gathering ideas and information. My idea was harmless and wouldn't destroy the very foundation of christanity, why such passionate and aggressive attacks were warranted baffles me.


Welcome to sinfest. You'll recieve three towels, which are to be returned at leave. Also, you will get one bar of soap. Extra soap cost one dollar fifteen a piece. Enjoy your stay.
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Last edited by Mr_Moustache on Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Yorick



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pytheus wrote:
I didn't expect people to believe me, but at least have the maturity to discuss the topic in an adult manner.


WELCOME TO SINFEST!!


mwa ahahahahhhahahahaahahahahaha

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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pytheus wrote:
This will offically be my last post on this thread. My inital feeling that people wouldn't accept my ideas and bash me on them were correct. I didn't expect people to believe me, but at least have the maturity to discuss the topic in an adult manner.

_one_person gets nasty, and we aren't discussing things in an adult manner? so you won't talk to us any more? well, that's a ......convenient way to get out of defending your ideas logically and properly.

Pytheus wrote:
Just everything I've read aside from the bible had an angelic messenger.
...
I don't use the bible so I don't consider it when gathering ideas and information. My idea was harmless and wouldn't destroy the very foundation of christanity, why such passionate and aggressive attacks were warranted baffles me.


see, the problem with these two here is, christianity is based on the bible. you can't discount the bible completely, and then try to discuss christianity. you have your own non-christian religious believes - that's fine. but you can't then state what christianity believes when you admit upfront that you are not considering (and indeed, have not even read) the source-text for christianity.

man, i'm not even religious and _i_ know that.

as someone who actually _is_ reading the bible, i can state that, in the old testament, god talks directly to people (moses and job being particularly noticeable examples). he also sends angels to talk to people. in the new testament (at least as far as i've gotten), god talks directly to jesus, but sends angels to talk to other people (like mary and the father of john the baptist).

that's in the actual _text_, in various translations. what is floating around in the minds of various people who have not actually bothered to read much of _any_ translation of that text, i have no idea.
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Yorick



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Pytheus wrote:
This will offically be my last post on this thread. My inital feeling that people wouldn't accept my ideas and bash me on them were correct. I didn't expect people to believe me, but at least have the maturity to discuss the topic in an adult manner.

_one_person gets nasty, and we aren't discussing things in an adult manner? so you won't talk to us any more? well, that's a ......convenient way to get out of defending your ideas logically and properly.

Yeah. don't leave in a huff! just leave!
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Mr_Moustache



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Be gone !
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you know, i just realized - this all is going on in a thread called "i can't change".

pytheus, i guess, is just exemplifying the topic.
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Mr_Moustache



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

written words cant change.
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Yorick



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr_Moustache wrote:
Written words can't change.

no?
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Mr_Moustache



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see what you did there !
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bun bun
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YenTheFirst wrote:
bun bun wrote:
I'm sorry, the correct answer was

Quote:
In the sentence "Green is green," the seemingly logical interpretation is p=p. Wittgenstein postulates, however, that the logical interpretation of this sentence is

where the extension of "N" is {things named "green"}, and the extension of "G" is {things that are green}.



Not to nitpick too too much, but would the extension of 'N' be all objects in the domain named "Green", or does the typical assumption of names in your system not respect case?

The logical system in place attempts to understand the sentence, which, in English, does not repect case.

If I were to say, "(some sentence) and green is green," then the proposition "green is green" in that construction would mean the same as the stand-alone sentence "Green is green," in English, thus the logic treats them as the same, and ignores case.

If I were to speak of a person named "Mr. Green" and dropped the "Mr." title, and Mr. Green happened to have had green paint thrown on him, the schema would have to contain the term "Px", the extension of "P" would be {x is a person} (unless the Universe of Discourse were restricted), the quantifier would have to be an existential one instead of a universal one (indicating that the sentence is referring to a specific person named "Green", rather than all things that are green), and the extension of "N" would be {things named "Green"}, in which case, capitalization would be significant.

Wittgenstein, in the passage I quoted, was using the words "name" and "person" to make a point that the first use of "Green" in his sentence was to be thought of as a name logically (i.e. a noun) and not the same as the adjective "green", which is an attribute of the noun.

Really, truth-functional and monadic/polyadic predicate logics all rely on paraphrasing based on our uses of words in English.

Is that all clear, or... I'm not sure how much logic you know, so if anything is still unclear, tell me.
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YenTheFirst



Joined: 18 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, your explanation is quite clear.
The original passage, on the other hand, is not. Not clear to me, at least.

I suppose that highlights an ambiguity of English.
That system of translation interprets "Green is green" as "All things named 'green' are of the color green",
whereas unless there was an establishing context, most people would interpret it as "the color green is green". Which, as you stated, was the seemingly logical interpretation.
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Mr_Moustache



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dont you guys get laid?
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bun bun
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YenTheFirst wrote:
Actually, your explanation is quite clear.
The original passage, on the other hand, is not. Not clear to me, at least.

Wittgenstein wrote a lot of his work completely alone (ironic considering his theories about truth) in a remote cabin living off oatmeal and cocoa. I don't think anyone could ever claim that Wittgenstein wrote clearly, and if they do, they're lying.
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Pytheus
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry Mouse. I just wanted to answer your post. Let me make clear, I am in no way shape or form Chirstain. My beliefs are not bound to christainity. I believe no religion has all the answers so I look at all of them and draw my own conclusions. I'm eclectic.

I would like to better defend my possition, didn't know I was getting into a fight. Its been 10 years since I cracked open a religious book and read anything. I don't have any notes or bookmarks to help me reference sources. I'm not prepaired to argue my points. I believe what I believe and I'm happy with that. I shouldn't have to defend my beliefs. Nor should I be made to feel I must believe a certain way or be considered "stupid".
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