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Sheltering children from rejection until teen years.
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Krazy Stixx



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 568

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rejection, like scars and fist fights, helps build character.
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Egregius



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 171

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:

My dad always said the most shocking and embarrassing thing in a childs life should be their parents.


Man, there's some good wisdom in there.

I have some mixed feelings on the article as well, although after reading everyone's comments I have to say the plan isn't that great. But their heart is in the right place.

Getting picked on is, besides a natural occurance in social animals unfortunately, a vicious cycle of getting rejected, getting reclusive and defensive, and subsequently getting rejected more.

If I look back at certain points in my life, I think to myself: 'Man, what a jackass/idiot I was. I should've done this or that'. But I didn't, because I felt stung by everyone. Which lead to more being left out/picked on.

The plan of these parents, although nice in theory, won't work for the most part, because experiencing being left out later in life, even if it were possible to eliminate it early on, will hit extra hard.
When I was 8, I skipped a grade. Skipping a grade will, 19 times out of 20, lead to getting picked on, HARD. Going from one of the more popular kids in the class to bottom-rank hits you badly.

And in every social group, people will get picked on. It's especially shocking if you see it happen among adults with respectable jobs, but it's even nastier when it happens there.

Being excluded from something seems so minor to me. When I was 9, I got invited to everyone's party, but they still picked on me during the day, even right in front of the teacher who refused to help (probably from some misgiven idea of learning to fend for oneself). The thing that really damages people is if people get picked on and noone higher up is willing to help them. The woman who got £800k in damages from her former employer in London (a bank), got totally burnt out because she was getting harrassed by several fellow employees, and getting no help whatsoever from her supervisor (astonishingly, all involved were female as well (BBC-link)). Then you get that learned helplessness thing going, with that feeling you're never safe and always on edge.

So the general idea in TFA is nice, but flawed. But I'm glad they're at least paying attention to how children are behaving towards eachother.
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Lasairfiona



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9702
Location: I have to be somewhere? ::runs around frantically::

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krazy Stixx wrote:
Rejection, like scars and fist fights, helps build character.

And chicks dig scars.

Mondey Mcdermott wrote:
My dad always said the most shocking and embarrassing thing in a childs life should be their parents.

Preach it brotha'!

Getting picked on isn't pleasant but it isn't the victim's fault either. The bully is the one who has to change (or be stopped) and the victim rarely has any say about it. The victim can do many things such as remove themselves from the situation, inform a higher authority, or grow a thicker skin (all depending on the severity of the bullying). The victim has to learn to deal with it and the bully has to learn to stop. Both sides have to be addressed before there is going to be a permanent solution.

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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3315

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best part is he told me that, after coming to pick me up from school in a set of flip flops and a tie dyed suit of long underwear. WAY TO WALK THE WALK POPS!
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Penguins & Polarbears



Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Dad, I keep getting picked on at school."

"Tough luck son. When you have to walk to school barefoot in the winter, up hill both ways. THEN you can complain to me."
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Katrin



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 293
Location: Some place HAWT

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Mom, I keep getting picked on at school."

"Wh-what?"

"The other kids bully me... they call me fat-ugly. Or Fugly for short."

"Man, fuck you and fuck them, it's fucking 2 AM, go back to sleep before I bash your skull in."

"But, mooooom..."

"Oh my fucking god, kid, just like... Iunno... um, you see that closet over there, darling? Go over there and find daddy's gun, bring it to show and tell tommorow, alright?"

"Oh... okay..."

"Good, now go back to fucking sleep you midget-prick."
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Drui



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 541
Location: 'Jersey :}

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Egregius wrote:
Getting picked on is, besides a natural occurance in social animals unfortunately, a vicious cycle of getting rejected, getting reclusive and defensive, and subsequently getting rejected more.

I've had a thought flitting around the back of my mind, and I think this helped me realize it.

People always have the capacity to change. I know the cycle you speak of, and looking back I see that I experienced it. But that's not where I am now, and hasn't been for a long time. So what gives? How'd I escape it?

There are catalysts that can break a person from that destiny, I think, and probably everyone is encountered by such a catalyst at some point. How you react to that catalyst is significant to where you will go in the next stage of you life. For me, I was confronted by caring people, and also the mean people of my past changed and were moved away from me. I was unhappy, but I saw the opportunity to go somewhere new, and I took it.

In the end, I think having been rejected actually taught me how to take that opporunity. I was able to appreciate the goodness of these new people, and they pulled me up to a better place.

Can't have day without night and all that jazz.
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Egregius



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 171

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True. Getting positive reinforcers (as in people) helps a LOT. Psychology professor once said you could get any shy person to become outgoing, if you surround him or her by people who will continually laugh at his/her jokes. That made me think a lot, about malleability.
Now I'm at a point in my life where I still have trouble 'making contact' in social situations, but I have more of an attitude of 'fuck it' if things don't go my way. Smile
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kame



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 2565
Location: Alba Nuadh

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I see in this is, 'legislate our kids upbringing so we don't have to.'

effing lazy parents.
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Drui



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 541
Location: 'Jersey :}

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kame wrote:
All I see in this is, 'legislate our kids upbringing so we don't have to.'

effing lazy parents.

Don't get me started there. I can rant for hours.

P.S. Malleability is a great word. Smile
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Egregius



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 171

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just realised that moving away from pacifism helped a lot as well. Cuz I really wasn't pacifistic, I was just afraid of violence and conflict avoiding.

Which in itself is a good thing, but always gets interpreted wrongly in social situations Sad
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CopperTop



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 127
Location: South of Next Tuesday

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being the overweight, grade skipping nerd-girl with the weird parents, I should have just worn a T-shirt with a target on it to classes. However, I did discover something useful one day - bullies will stop picking on you when you pull their underwear halfway up their back. (AKA - The Wedgie from Hell).

Not really belonging to any group allowed me to float between all the groups - I hung out with the rednecks, the scholars, the smokers and the jocks as I chose.

Then I became the weird parent. Nothing gets a teacher's attention better than showing up to the PTA meeting in a black fedora, jeans, motorcycle boots and a top that shows off the biker tattoos, with the kids in tow. It also lets the parents of the school terrors warn their little darlings that those kids are to be left alone, since they don't want that mom showing up on THEIR doorstep. Cool
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10730
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nononsenseselfdefense wrote:
It is odd, but a "truly" pacific person will be safe around violent individuals. It is a litmus test for true non-violence. A peaceful person will literally cause a violent person to "relax." Such a person can safely pass through the toughest of neighborhoods and deal with the most violent people without danger (except on rare occasions involving someone who is so severely mentally disturbed, disturbed that we are talking institutionalization ).

...

Once you are familiar with these "patterns" and the subtle clues that "leak" out, you can almost magically look at people and identify who is a cop, a criminal, gay, an alcoholic, a drug user, their social class, a combat vet or a host of other categories.


This is a very poor website. I don't know who wrote it, but they're badly misinformed about most of the things they're discussing.

In any event, pacifism isn't easy, but it's a philosophy and a way of life. If you believe it, you act it. As a kid I didn't understand it and I got into a few fights at school, now as an adult I believe I understand it and I think it's an admirable goal.

... totally off topic. Smile
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Egregius



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 171

PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<offtopic>

Actually...I think it's a great website. I admit that particular bit is a bit farfetched, and they don't talk from their own experience I'm betting, but other than that, they talk from personal experience of over a decade. I've become a lot more self confident in public spaces after reading their site; it's full of practical applicable-to-real-world-situations tips.

I believe these people know what they're talking about. Marc McYoung got into more than his fair share of fights when he was young, before he realised why, and how not to. He's been a self-defense instructor since, providing help and advice to penitentiary and law-enforcement institutions. I wouldn't call them ill-informed.

But yeah, the pacifism bit is a bit hard to swallow, but after reading the rest of the website, it kinda makes sense. The stages one goes through before getting into a violent encounter are many, and a true pacifist will succesfully avoid most of them, most of the time. People almost never use violence unless they see reason to (often involving the perception they need to 'defend' something, like face). Pacifists don't give reason. And when I was a pseudo-pacifist, I later realised, I was actually very passive agressive. I'm now a believer in pragmatic and restrained self-dense; I don't think pacifism can be pulled off in all situations.

</offtopic>
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