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A book of science.... A book of Irony.
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E-boy



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: Virginia (Much barfiness)

PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:48 pm    Post subject: A book of science.... A book of Irony. Reply with quote

It's called "A mind of it's own: How your brain distorts and decieves".

The primary tenet of the book is that our subconcious does a great deal to preserve our fragile self image and does so by the means mentioned in the title. The best part is the discussion over how your subconscious is smarter, faster, and more powerful than you are.

The delicious irony is that there is a subgroup of people particularly good at getting around their subconscious imperatives. They are much better at accurate self assessments and assessments of events in general. The really good part is the subgroup in question represents the clinically depressed. Apparently knowing thyself isn't such great advice.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or rather their subconscious mind isn't so good at giving them a peptalk to keep their mind in balance, even when it's warranted?
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Flion



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"God is an iron." - Spider Robinson
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Michael



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

psst!
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Usagi Miyamoto



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bicycle
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Last edited by Usagi Miyamoto on Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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Egregius



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The book E-Boy describes sounds like a good summary of psychology 101. And it's all true.

I hadn't heard of the bit with clinically depressed explicitly though, but it makes sense. People who are cynical and/or depressed are known to be more realistic than people who aren't.

Wish I had known 'beforehand' (as in, during my growing up) that I shouldn't know myself (well, sorta). I've always considered 'being in control of myself' and 'letting reason guide you' as imperatives. Poor dumb me. In the past there have been a few occassions where my subconscious made me blurt out/do some things that I later considerd very insightful and apt for the moment, which I probably wouldn't have done if I had consciously thought about it.
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This only makes me happier.
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mess



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:27 am    Post subject: Re: A book of science.... A book of Irony. Reply with quote

E-boy wrote:
...the subgroup in question represents the clinically depressed.


People who are not depressed (and perhaps society in general), think the depressed are the ones distorting reality. No?

-mess
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rm



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:35 pm    Post subject: Re: A book of science.... A book of Irony. Reply with quote

E-boy wrote:


The delicious irony is that there is a subgroup of people particularly good at getting around their subconscious imperatives. They are much better at accurate self assessments and assessments of events in general. The really good part is the subgroup in question represents the clinically depressed. Apparently knowing thyself isn't such great advice.


that's only because the base realities of nature are brutish and non-emotional. human beings thrive socially and depend on emotions to manage their way through life. it's not really so much depression as it is realizing that your subconsciousness doesn't know what love or hate or any other feeling is.
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E-boy



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well on that we disagree RM. Emotions, even higher level ones while they are certainly involved in consciousness are very much present on the subconscious level as well.

The whole point of the books commentary on the brain's distortions and deceptions is that our ideas of our own "free will" are somewhat overblown to say the least.

Naturally, this could easily slide into a rather unproductive legal or philosophical issue, even though for all itents and purposes on those levels we DO have free will.

The legal system has made much ado over neurologists saying there are no "Uncaused" individual actions (apparently in the legal system a choice initiated by you, because you simply deliberately decided to do something constitutes and uncaused action by an agent with free will), only any nuerologist will tell you that no such actions EVER take place. In point of fact, a good many of our individual decisions have already been processed and made by lower level brain systems before we are ever conscious of deliberating over them, or of having come to a decision.

This, of course, does not, and should not affect the legal systems definitions of free will. It's pretty clear from a common sense point of view that people do make individual decisions and should be held accountable.

Lovely how silly all this information can make people.
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rm



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

after that first statement, was the rest of your post meant as an explanation? I hope you're not confusing the ability of the lower consciousness to make "free will" decisions with its purported ability to feel and emote? undoubtedly the subconscious mind processeses the emotions we consciously enact every moment of every day... meaning it breaks it all down like so much data in order to make said decisions, but if the subconsciousness actually felt it would hardly be as effective a dissimilator as it is. the problem is that we, being awake-aware solely on a conscious level, reprocess all that data, question our own decisions, and, if we are depressed, doubt them and ourselves. being depressed makes "going with the flow" (the flow between the subconscious and conscious minds) nearly impossible.

imagine if instead of not being able to function within the system, not being able to reconcile the various layers of consciousness to one another, not being "depressed", that you simply rid yourself of consciousness altogether, or somehow made it more like the subconsciousness in all its relaxed, efficient glory... you'd be a robot moving through actions you have no awareness of. emotions are a product of conscious life. the subconscious has to deal with this in order to keep things moving, but it doesn't really actually share in the fun.
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Iscariot



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The book E-Boy describes sounds like a good summary of psychology 101. And it's all true.


Psychology 101 is not all true, infact very little of it is. The standard social science model which modern and classical psychology is based on, suffers from a serious of major logical defects in its underlying principles, that make the science as a whole, less than... well a science.

Its illogical, irrational, has little evidence and is just plain wrong in most cases. If anyone wants references to do the research themselves, i'll be glad to provide.

Sorry, but once again, the standard social science model, and standard psychology because of it, are BULLSHIT.
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Iscariot



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
that's only because the base realities of nature are brutish and non-emotional. human beings thrive socially and depend on emotions to manage their way through life. it's not really so much depression as it is realizing that your subconsciousness doesn't know what love or hate or any other feeling is.


What do you mean about the base realities of nature being brutish and unemotional. On one hand, physics is a blind force with no design in mind.

On the other hand those blind unemotional forces have created within us, emotions, our emotions exist because in hunter gatherer societies, where we spent 99% of our species evolution.

Our emotions are a direct result of 'nature' and natural selection, while at the bottom there is nothing but blind physical forces at hand, the reality of nature is that it can create these things.

Our subconscious, unconscious and consciousness is largely, largely, dancing like a puppet on strings to our genes, which were shaped by evolution. Unconscious mechanisms have developed in humans, because the fact that they were unconscious made them more successful.
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rm



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iscariot wrote:


What do you mean about the base realities of nature being brutish and unemotional. On one hand, physics is a blind force with no design in mind.

On the other hand those blind unemotional forces have created within us, emotions...


of course they did. that's why we are divided into conscious and unconscious layers. we are complicated products of both.
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Michael



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rm wrote:
quite a lot


How do you know all this rm? What are you basing it on? I thought the whole boundary between consciousness and unconciousness was a lot more vague and complicated than being "divided into conscious and unconscious layers"
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