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nathan



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6282

PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, of course he is. In the sober light of day I see I was very wrong.



My only reservation being: in the Dairy Queen scenario, we are in agreement that the janitor-groped Patron may leave at any point, yes?
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10707
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nathan wrote:
My only reservation being: in the Dairy Queen scenario, we are in agreement that the janitor-groped Patron may leave at any point, yes?

Things in your pocket still have the expectation of privacy. That's why cops ask you for your ID unless or until you're under arrest.

... plus I'm pretty sure, barring arrest, you're allowed to leave anywhere, any time you want.
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andrew



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 4495
Location: the raging sea

PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nathan wrote:
My only reservation being: in the Dairy Queen scenario, we are in agreement that the janitor-groped Patron may leave at any point, yes?


Yes, although he may want to wait for his raging erection to calm.

Quote:
... plus I'm pretty sure, barring arrest, you're allowed to leave anywhere, any time you want.


LP, security, certain management and select other personnel are authorized to detain people they suspect of shoplifting (and other misc. offenses) provided that they can demonstrate probable cause. There is a somewhat standardized list of unofficial rules regarding determining probable cause:

* The investigator must see the suspect enter an area or department with no merchandise in their possession.
* The investigator must see the suspect select the store's merchandise.
* The investigator must see the suspect conceal the store's merchandise.
* The investigator must maintain constant surveillance of the suspect and be certain the store merchandise is not discarded.
* The suspect must pass all reasonable points of sale with the merchandise before conducting an apprehension.

In reality, these guidelines are legislated to varying degrees by state and are infrequently adhered to, as LPs must make judgement calls in less-than-ideal situations. However, the wording of the shoplifting law is so vague, thanks to the use of words like "reasonable," that criminal and civil charges are very infrequently successfully levered against the store or its employees.

Basically, if the LP/Security/Management personnel can demonstrate "reasonable" suspicion, they can detain you.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10707
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrew wrote:
LP, security, certain management and select other personnel are authorized to detain people they suspect of shoplifting (and other misc. offenses) provided that they can demonstrate probable cause.

It's actually a simple citizen's arrest. There's no fancy term for a private citizen detaining another in most states. I've been in retail management for five years (oh my god...) and they drill this into you repeatedly. Even mall security guards have no special powers. Anyone who sees a person commit a misdemeanor, or has reasonable suspicion they committed a felony, can detain them with a citizen's arrest. Contrary to popular belief, this includes "reasonable force" to prevent them from escaping.

One of these days all this useless trivia will come in handy, I just know it...
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 12169
Location: Unknown Kaddath

PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
One of these days all this useless trivia will come in handy, I just know it...

In defending your vigilante career as Hookhand the Destoryer? "Those buildings were full of criminals, officer!
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10707
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Dogen wrote:
One of these days all this useless trivia will come in handy, I just know it...

In defending your vigilante career as Hookhand the Destoryer? "Those buildings were full of criminals, officer!


That sounds like a moniker that requires a lot of effort to come by... not to mention pain. I doubt anyone would call me Hookhand because of my fearsome pinches.
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andrew



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 4495
Location: the raging sea

PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
It's actually a simple citizen's arrest. There's no fancy term for a private citizen detaining another in most states.


Actually, there's a specific bill called the Merchant's Somethingorother Act that sets aside different limitations for employees acting on a corporation's behalf. The applicable details vary from state to state, but I can't remember exactly what the differences are.

It's part of the reason why only certain store personnel are allowed to perform stops without reprecussions.

Edit to add: Actually, I think the Merchant Whatever Act is legislation designed to prevent civil suits.

Quote:
One of these days all this useless trivia will come in handy, I just know it...


Jeopardy?

Quote:
That sounds like a moniker that requires a lot of effort to come by... not to mention pain. I doubt anyone would call me Hookhand because of my fearsome pinches.


A Target undercover LP in...I think Tukwila? was performing an external stop when his wrist was slashed; he lost all motor function & feeling in it. Maybe if he replaced it with a hook...
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sporko



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 2891

PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
my fearsome pinches.


but they hurt!


(yes, that's my only contribution to this thread. i think you're all silly people, but i <3 you anyway.)

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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10707
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrew wrote:
Edit to add: Actually, I think the Merchant Whatever Act is legislation designed to prevent civil suits.

I've never heard of that particular law. All I know is what my LP managers, security guards, police and such have told me, which is that anyone can make a citizen's arrest if they witness a misdemeanor. I'm not management (anymore, went back to school), but I can still detain people I catch stealing (and have a dozen or so times over the years).

Quote:
Jeopardy?

I used to watch the show regularly. When I was younger I wanted to go on Teen Jeopardy because I got at least 90% of the questions right. Big boy Jeopardy is a lot tougher, though.

Quote:
A Target undercover LP in...I think Tukwila? was performing an external stop when his wrist was slashed; he lost all motor function & feeling in it. Maybe if he replaced it with a hook...

You couldn't pay me to be an LP guy at one of those big retail stores. RadioShack's LP manager is ex-CIA and scary as hell when he wants to be (dude gets paid like $150k/year, too), but one of Xilo's old bosses is the LP manager for Haggen (Top Foods down there) and he gets fucked up ALL the time. People hit him with stuff, throw things at him, pound him... it's crazy what people will do to get away with a ham.

sporko wrote:
but they hurt!

My Shaolin Monkey Claw Style defeats your Chicago Wet Seal Style!
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andrew



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 4495
Location: the raging sea

PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I've never heard of that particular law. All I know is what my LP managers, security guards, police and such have told me, which is that anyone can make a citizen's arrest if they witness a misdemeanor. I'm not management (anymore, went back to school), but I can still detain people I catch stealing (and have a dozen or so times over the years).


I've done so as well in my time working retail, but was always chided for it by both police and management, with the implication that I was inviting a civil suit.

LPs, on the other hand, can get away with murder. Literally.

Quote:
RadioShack's LP manager is ex-CIA and scary as hell when he wants to be (dude gets paid like $150k/year, too)


Is it still Jacob? It was when I worked there, and he was a scary bastard.

Not as scary as Miguel, our DM, though.
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