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"We'll buy you a different t-shirt."
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so where do you pick that fight? at a political rally? police have arrested people in those places. in the newspaper? what if they don't chose to publish your letter to the editor? what other rights do you decide are not worth the fuss, and when?

and by the way - there are laws that limit where you can carry a gun, despite the second amendment. there are no laws that limit what you can have on your shirt.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so where do you pick that fight? at a political rally? police have arrested people in those places - maybe it's best not to make a fuss. in the newspaper? what if they don't chose to publish your letter to the editor? after all, that's their right...no point in saying anything about it. what other rights do you decide are not worth the fuss, and when?

and by the way - there are laws that limit where you can carry a gun, despite the second amendment. there are no laws that limit what you can have on your shirt.
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Celaeno



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a significant difference between claiming to exercise your right to free speech by talking to the flight attendant about bombs and wearing a t-shirt. One signifies a threat. The other does not. Where, may I ask you, was the threat in his t-shirt?

Picking your battles is one thing. Letting your rights disappear--no, letting them be disregarded--is another.
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Amilam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, your main point was that the shirt being written in Arabic was the sole cause of being stopped and thus not racism. With that being challenged now youíve switched to admitting that looking Middle Eastern has gotten you stopped in airports, but itís not a big deal.

Omega F wrote:
Do I believe that due to the 2nd amendment I can carry a gun on an airplane? No. Even if its not loaded? No. It's not dangerous at that point, so why not? Its all in the appearence.


Youíre actually comparing a shirt with Arabic writing to a gun? This is the best analogy you could come up with? Really? A gun always remains a weapon even when lacking bullets. If I pull a gun out you cannot tell whether or not itís loaded. A shirt with Arabic language has absolutely no potential for violence in and of itself. Additionally, taking off or covering the shirt doesnít have any effect on the wearer of the shirt. By covering this shirt the safety of the passengers was in no way improved. What people find threatening is not the violence inherent within the shirt or language, but the association with the Middle East. This is the definition of racism and a fundamental violation of our nationís principles.

Iím glad people in the Civil Rights movement never ďgrew upĒ like you did.
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Last edited by Amilam on Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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sporko



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Omega F wrote:
sporko wrote:
keeping your head down is the answer! damn the man (but for god's sake, don't make a fuss about it)!

...

baa



Feel free to talk about the high price of bombs to your nearest flight attendant. Because that's what sheeps don't doooo!! OOOOO!!!, you don't wanna be a sheep now!!

Reflexively responding to every stimuli is also sheep behavior. Knowing that an airport isn't the place to pick a fight about freedom of expression/speech, that requires intelligence.


...sigh. i just honestly don't know how to respond to you seriously because i don't think we're coming from the same platform. i think that people in this country have rights guaranteed by the constitution, and shouldn't compromise those rights just because it's more convenient to. i also believe that the whole POINT of the constitution was to preserve the rights of citizens, to have a black-and-white legal document that said that no, you cannot infringe upon these rights no matter who you are and no matter what your own agenda may be. i think there is a sort of sanctity in the constitution that shouldn't be taken lightly or tossed around by those in positions of authority.

i can't respond to you because you apparently really don't have the same basis of belief.
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Omega F



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Celaeno wrote:
There's a significant difference between claiming to exercise your right to free speech by talking to the flight attendant about bombs and wearing a t-shirt. One signifies a threat. The other does not. Where, may I ask you, was the threat in his t-shirt?

Picking your battles is one thing. Letting your rights disappear--no, letting them be disregarded--is another.


Talking about bombs does not equate saying you are going to bomb something. But it will still get you arrested.

That's about all I'm going to say on the subject. You guys go on, though, this is really quite amusing.

Edit: One more thing, in regards to amilam's post. I didn't change my position. I still think that the shirt was the problem, not the man. My being stopped was only brought up to illustrate that I am not unfamiliar with the situation of being stopped at an airport. And I don't consider it racism. Its just part of their job.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just out of curiosity, what excuse did they use when they stopped you at the airport? did it not occur to you that the skirt was just an excuse? note that they had already subjected him to a search _before_ they said the problem was the shirt. if it was just the shirt - why didn't they ask him about it during the first stop?
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Reflexively responding to every stimuli is also sheep behavior. Knowing that an airport isn't the place to pick a fight about freedom of expression/speech, that requires intelligence.

This doesn't even make sense. You're making the accusation that standing up for one's rights is somehow "responding to every stimuli"? I would argue that understanding ones rights and the potential consequences of choosing to stand up for them, and then doing it anyway, requires far more intelligence and guts than simply bowing to the wishes of whomever asks you to change your shirt. An intelligent person considers their actions, weighs the possible outcomes, and makes a decision. Your example doesn't make sense anyway. You can ask a flight attendent or fellow passenger if they've heard about the latest bombings in Iraq as part of normal conversation. It's not as though the word "bomb" will cause Air Marshals to drop out of the overheard compartments. It's the method of threat perception we're talking about here. At some point the "perception of a threat" becomes too encompassing and becomes, itself, a threat to our way of life. Discerning this difference is what requires intelligence and beckons us to act. Anyone can rationalize not acting, and yes it puts you on a slippery slope.

Speaking of which, that's not always a fallacy. It can be a valid argument when the claims are supported with indepenent evidence to connect them, so simply saying "I've heard the whole slippery slope fallacy about this being the beginning and then everything else falls," does not invalidate the argument that allowing small lapses of our freedom encourage greater infringement.
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trustedfaith



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allowing or empowering fear based actions, with no credibility, by our own security/police system isn't exactly something you should be saying "it's no big deal" to.

When you allow the government this right, you've just taken away one of yours. Even if you value freedom of religion over free speech, the right of free speech still belongs to you. Giving it away because you don't feel like fighting for it, spells laziness.
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Major Tom



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 7562

PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Omega F wrote:
Celaeno wrote:
There's a significant difference between claiming to exercise your right to free speech by talking to the flight attendant about bombs and wearing a t-shirt. One signifies a threat. The other does not. Where, may I ask you, was the threat in his t-shirt?

Picking your battles is one thing. Letting your rights disappear--no, letting them be disregarded--is another.


Talking about bombs does not equate saying you are going to bomb something. But it will still get you arrested.


...will get you arrested because there is a law about that sort of conduct on an airplane.

there is no law regarding a non-threatening t-shirt with arabic script on it.



see the difference yet?
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Guccipiggy



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, whilst I was reading that I thought two things:

1. Wow. Those police people and airline people are IDIOTIC.

2. Oh jeez, just change your t-shirt already.
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Secret Service



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, all of you (except Omega F), take your hands off the keepboard and place them on the desk in plain sight.

Last edited by Secret Service on Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

terrorist
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kame



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll do it if Secret Sevice promises to do a cavity search.
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Major Tom



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Secret Service wrote:
Okay, all of you (except Omega F), take your hands off the keepboard and place them on the desk in plain sight.

Last edited by Secret Service on Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:36 am; edited 1 time in total


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