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Omega F
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 408
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 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| andrew wrote: | | Dogen wrote: | | WheelsOfConfusion wrote: | | And what good is the eviction going to do, anyway? |
That was my major question... how does getting kicked out of school help anyone get over depression? I understand the legal reason (since, apparently, people are sueing), but I can't really think of some way to spin this as being in the best interest of the student.
I also don't understand how anyone could logically expect a school to be intimately aware of the mental state of its students. Individual teachers may or may not get to know some of their students but to hold the school responsible for something that is often kept very private to begin with seems ludicrous. |
The only answer I can come up with is "so their name isn't associated with a high number of suicides," e.g. Cornell.
Just attempts. ^_^ |
Yeah, this policy isn't meant to help students. I kinda glanced over the article, but I don't think its even implied. Its probably just to improve "buisness". Kids offing themselves is probably pretty bad for the morale of the neighboring students, and they may not recommend their school to their younger friends and familiy. The kids evicted will still probably attempt suicide, but it won't be known as a campus housing suicide. The school also won't have to deal with the police and ambulances being there, all the red tape, etc. It seems to have gone against the practice of better buisness because of the lawsuits, so they recant their policy. [obvious] All in all, their behavior doesn't seem to be motivated by the student, but by money. [/obvious]
I don't know what to think about this policy. To my understanding, they don't expell the students, they just evict them from housing. There are other things that can get you kicked out. Drug use. I had some roomates kicked out for that. Would it have been the school's responsibility to get them help for their addiction? You can get kicked out for overall rowdiness. The reason being that you're a distraction for the other students. A suicide attempt would also be.
I remember being in college and having dark thoughts like this, and in retrospect, being kicked out of housing would have probably screwed me up more. Would I have blamed the school if they kicked me out of housing? Yes. Would the school have been justified in evicting me? I just don't know. |
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Dogen
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 11274
Location: PDX
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| Samsally wrote: | | trustedfaith wrote: | | That's what psychiatrists and psychologists are for. They usually are the ones to decide whether or not someone is of sound mind or not. |
Who are they to know? Someone who studies it in a text book and graduates with an expencive degree? That doesn't convince me. |
It is a well documented fact that book learning amounts to nothing in this world. Only people with mental illnesses can recognize and help others with illnesses. It's crazy to think that you can read about something in a book and then be expected to understand it, let alone detect it. Like doctors. Sure, they can read about diseases like smallpox and leprosy, but has that ever allowed them to find a cure? I think not. Don't get me started on hostage negotiators. When was the last time one of them took someone hostage, Samuel L. Jackson excepted?
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"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. I’ll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman |
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Guccipiggy
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 2003
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:46 am Post subject: |
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Well, in the psychologist's and shrink's defense... it has been somewhat proven that most psych and med students after a psychiatric degree do have some sort of 'mental illness' (ranging from depression and OCD to 'worse' stuff). They usually specialize in the one they have, too. They're usually indivduals who want to have a better understanding of what's happening to them because they think no one else will help - they have to do it themselves. So, yeah, shrinks and therapists are usually as bat shit crazy as we all are.
Of course, I'm generalising, so chill. |
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mouse
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 20777
Location: under the bed
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: lol, suicidal susie! suicidal susie! |
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| Sam wrote: | | Quote: | | She was being expelled from the residence, the school informed her, because she violated her housing contract by attempting suicide. The 19-year-old was allowed to retrieve her belongings in the presence of a security guard. |
That sounds so progressive and helpful and not at all a bad idea. Maybe they should also arrest her, or at the very least just point at her and laugh a whole bunch. |
yeah, that was what hit me - that, and the whole coming-back-from-the-hospital-and-finding-yourself-locked-out thing - doesn't seem to me that _that_ would do much to make you feel more stable.
the enforced leave-of-absence policy i can see, _if_ it happens after some discussion with the student and the student's parents, so everyone is clear on why the school is concerned.
the thing is, college _is_ stressful, i would guess more than a few students have periods of thinking about suicide. better to start by trying to talk them through it, and gradually work up to more extreme actions.
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aka: neverscared!
a flux of vibrant matter |
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Snorri
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10880
Location: hiding the decline.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: lol, suicidal susie! suicidal susie! |
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| mouse wrote: | | Sam wrote: | | Quote: | | She was being expelled from the residence, the school informed her, because she violated her housing contract by attempting suicide. The 19-year-old was allowed to retrieve her belongings in the presence of a security guard. |
That sounds so progressive and helpful and not at all a bad idea. Maybe they should also arrest her, or at the very least just point at her and laugh a whole bunch. |
yeah, that was what hit me - that, and the whole coming-back-from-the-hospital-and-finding-yourself-locked-out thing - doesn't seem to me that _that_ would do much to make you feel more stable.
the enforced leave-of-absence policy i can see, _if_ it happens after some discussion with the student and the student's parents, so everyone is clear on why the school is concerned.
the thing is, college _is_ stressful, i would guess more than a few students have periods of thinking about suicide. better to start by trying to talk them through it, and gradually work up to more extreme actions. |
I just want to kill all those motherfuckers who give me bad grades!
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Zorbino
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Posts: 12
Location: Bend, Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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A quick $0.02, and rant. Feel free to ignore me.
I worked as an RA at a dorm back in my college days. We had a girl that was in my wing that attempted suicide. It turns out that she was schizophrenic, and that it ran in her family. I received a lecture from the dean of students about how I should have seen the signs and not let this happen. The school threatened my job if the parents sued. The family understood that this came on quickly having gone through the same thing with their older daughter, and didn't sue.
The next year they let the same girl back into the dorms. The director of housing told me that they placed her in my wing again, and that I needed to keep an eye on her. I am an engineer not a damn psychologist. How the hell was I supposed to keep an eye on her and 37 other residents while taking 20 credits. She started skipping her meetings with the college therapist person and was asked to leave. I will never forgive the school for trying to push that kind of responsibility onto me. They wanted a scapegoat if anything should happen to her.
Done ranting. Sorry.
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Engineering is the art of modelling materials we do not wholly understand, into shapes we cannot precisely analyse so as to withstand forces we cannot properly assess, in such a way that the public has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance. |
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Samsally
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 7458
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Dogen wrote: | | Samsally wrote: | | trustedfaith wrote: | | That's what psychiatrists and psychologists are for. They usually are the ones to decide whether or not someone is of sound mind or not. |
Who are they to know? Someone who studies it in a text book and graduates with an expencive degree? That doesn't convince me. |
It is a well documented fact that book learning amounts to nothing in this world. Only people with mental illnesses can recognize and help others with illnesses. It's crazy to think that you can read about something in a book and then be expected to understand it, let alone detect it. Like doctors. Sure, they can read about diseases like smallpox and leprosy, but has that ever allowed them to find a cure? I think not. Don't get me started on hostage negotiators. When was the last time one of them took someone hostage, Samuel L. Jackson excepted? |
Your sarcasm is -ever so- appreciated. There is a difference between treating something like leprosy or smallpox and mental illnesses. Jesus Christ, arn't they talking about making -obesity- an illness now?
Believe it or not, sometimes the lines arn't so crisp. I can only make my opinions based on my own experiences, and all of the people I've seen go to a shrink for help have either come back drugged up beyond recognition, or simply a lot poorer. I'm sure there are helpful and effective phsychiatrists and phsychologists around somewhere. I mean, the odds are for it. |
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Xilonen
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 466
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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Samsally, i'm pretty sure that trustedfaith (and Russ) was implying that psychiatrists and psychologists would be in a lot better position to determine soundness of mind and providing relief than, say, an economist, mechanic, or someone with no degree at all.
your mistrust of these professionals may be founded in your experience, but it hardly provides an alternative, and in most cases psychaitric review be the only method of obtaining help for someone unwilling to get it for themselves. |
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Dogen
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 11274
Location: PDX
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| mouse wrote: | yeah, that was what hit me - that, and the whole coming-back-from-the-hospital-and-finding-yourself-locked-out thing - doesn't seem to me that _that_ would do much to make you feel more stable.
the enforced leave-of-absence policy i can see, _if_ it happens after some discussion with the student and the student's parents, so everyone is clear on why the school is concerned.
the thing is, college _is_ stressful, i would guess more than a few students have periods of thinking about suicide. better to start by trying to talk them through it, and gradually work up to more extreme actions. |
I like the idea of offering students a break. Suicidal thoughts aren't always easy to spot (close friends and family are often taken by surprise), so either a) expecting kids to jump out and tell you they're considering suicide or b) expecting anyone to be able to spot it all of the time is unreasonable. Giving people options to choose what works for them, be it a hotline, counselors or the option to take a quarter or two off without penalties (dorm assignments, signing up for classes, finaid offered through the school, etc) seems like a brilliant idea. This all assumes, of course, a mindset of helping the student and not CYA.
Unfortunately, if parents feel the need to sue and judges fail to realize the lack of logic in it, I don't know that schools have many options but to try and find ways to reduce their liability.
Samsally: My reply was out of line, and I apologize. The sarcasm was unwarranted. I obviously hold a different opinion - I think the only people one can reliably expect to detect illnesses, maladaptive ideations, etc. in a broad range of people are those trained in what to look for beyond their personal experience. In any event, I apologize if I offended you. 
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"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. I’ll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman |
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Lurhis
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 23
Location: Far Side of Nowhere
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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Kid attempts/succeeds in killing self => parents look for scapegoat => legal system supports this => schools crack down on people who need help => suicides (successful/not) increase.
As for the whole issue of Shrinks that seems to have arisen, Shrinks have an insanely hard job. The answer to the job is in the patient in front of them and the patient even knows the answer, just not consciously. How frustrating must that be? Trying to get through people's emotional walls without causing them to kill you is like trying to drive a tank through a minefield.
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Lone Wolf don't roll with the Clan |
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Marik
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 1357
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:00 am Post subject: pigeons can be downright creepy when they want their pellet |
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Re: Psychology
You'd be surprised what you can learn about the human mind from a book.
Or, for that matter, a pigeon in a skinner box. |
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Tyr
Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 31
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:03 am Post subject: |
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Or having people give each other "fatal electric shocks".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Milgram
My two cents: Public schools are hopeless enough with education, leaving them with the burden of alleviating mental health issues in the first place is flagrant idiocy. Homeschool your kids, folks! |
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Marik
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 1357
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:12 am Post subject: TPW |
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| The Milgram Experiment, Stanford Prison Experiment and Robber's Cave Experiment: The Trifecta of Psychological Whatthefuckerry |
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Tyr
Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 31
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:26 am Post subject: |
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Hahaha, I love it!
Are you a psychology major? You sound like one! Or maybe sociology. |
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Dogen
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 11274
Location: PDX
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| Samarik wrote: | | Stanford Prison Experiment |
Zimbardo is crazy, I'm sure of it. Anyone who spends that much time having their goatee trimmed has got to be nuts. Plus, just look at him:
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"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. I’ll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman |
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