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End the war on drugs!
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Dro



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3854

PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrew wrote:
It really depends on how someone interprets "killed." Pot has contributed to many deaths, but there's not a single confirmed case of pot killing someone through toxicity.


So it is correlated but not a cause.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrew wrote:
It really depends on how someone interprets "killed." Pot has contributed to many deaths, but there's not a single confirmed case of pot killing someone through toxicity.


Well, here's a question I would have for anyone who works through these interpretations of 'killed:'

Using their definitions, can I say that tobacco has rarely ever killed anyone — certainly not a statistically significant amount? Can I claim that this is because very very few people die as a direct result of a nicotine overdose?

If they look at this and admit that even related physically toxic effects count towards their application of toxicity (in the case of tobacco use, carcinogens, pulmonary/cardiac degeneration, health problems related to nicotine's effect on blood pressure, etc) then they would probably want to admit that there are cases where marijuana use has effectively caused the death of an individual, mainly through pulmonary issues unrelated to cancer.

An even broader view would also accept deaths due to marijuana intoxication but eh.
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andrew



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Using their definitions, can I say that tobacco has rarely ever killed anyone — certainly not a statistically significant amount? Can I claim that this is because very very few people die as a direct result of a nicotine overdose?

I don't know what their definitions are; I was expressing one possible interpretation of the word "killed" that would make the statement "pot has never killed anyone" true.

Quote:
If they look at this and admit that even related physically toxic effects count towards their application of toxicity (in the case of tobacco use, carcinogens, pulmonary/cardiac degeneration, health problems related to nicotine's effect on blood pressure, etc) then they would probably want to admit that there are cases where marijuana use has effectively caused the death of an individual, mainly through pulmonary issues unrelated to cancer.

Yes, they would.
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The Highlord



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 551

PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
andrew wrote:
It really depends on how someone interprets "killed." Pot has contributed to many deaths, but there's not a single confirmed case of pot killing someone through toxicity.


Well, here's a question I would have for anyone who works through these interpretations of 'killed:'

Using their definitions, can I say that tobacco has rarely ever killed anyone — certainly not a statistically significant amount? Can I claim that this is because very very few people die as a direct result of a nicotine overdose?

If they look at this and admit that even related physically toxic effects count towards their application of toxicity (in the case of tobacco use, carcinogens, pulmonary/cardiac degeneration, health problems related to nicotine's effect on blood pressure, etc) then they would probably want to admit that there are cases where marijuana use has effectively caused the death of an individual, mainly through pulmonary issues unrelated to cancer.

An even broader view would also accept deaths due to marijuana intoxication but eh.

My understanding of the issue is that smoking is bad for you whether it's tobacco or marijuana—that's really not in contention—but since there are non-smoking ways to dose yourself with marijuana that are safe (as far as I know), it isn't really comparable to tobacco products which seem to give you cancer no matter what form you take it in.
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Mizike



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Highlord wrote:
Sam wrote:
andrew wrote:
It really depends on how someone interprets "killed." Pot has contributed to many deaths, but there's not a single confirmed case of pot killing someone through toxicity.


Well, here's a question I would have for anyone who works through these interpretations of 'killed:'

Using their definitions, can I say that tobacco has rarely ever killed anyone — certainly not a statistically significant amount? Can I claim that this is because very very few people die as a direct result of a nicotine overdose?

If they look at this and admit that even related physically toxic effects count towards their application of toxicity (in the case of tobacco use, carcinogens, pulmonary/cardiac degeneration, health problems related to nicotine's effect on blood pressure, etc) then they would probably want to admit that there are cases where marijuana use has effectively caused the death of an individual, mainly through pulmonary issues unrelated to cancer.

An even broader view would also accept deaths due to marijuana intoxication but eh.

My understanding of the issue is that smoking is bad for you whether it's tobacco or marijuana—that's really not in contention—but since there are non-smoking ways to dose yourself with marijuana that are safe (as far as I know), it isn't really comparable to tobacco products which seem to give you cancer no matter what form you take it in.


This is possibly not true! Swedanaviawayland has a type of tobacco called Snus which may not cause cancer. More tests need to be conducted but what evidence exists is quite interesting.
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tinkeringIdiot



Joined: 13 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mizike wrote:
This is possibly not true! Swedanaviawayland has a type of tobacco called Snus which may not cause cancer. More tests need to be conducted but what evidence exists is quite interesting.


I saw Colbert put one of those in. It was hilarious after his lip went numb.
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CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mizike wrote:
This is possibly not true! Swedanaviawayland has a type of tobacco called Snus which may not cause cancer. More tests need to be conducted but what evidence exists is quite interesting.


Well, one of the studies linked in that article did find an increase in incidence of pancreatic cancer, and the other studies show correlations between snus and other health issues, like heart disease, so... Better than smoking, at least?
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DeD CHiKn



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
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Location: Baltimore, Maryla*gunshot*

PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Highlord wrote:
but since there are non-smoking ways to dose yourself with marijuana that are safe (as far as I know)


They still impair your judgment and therefore are just as "safe" as smoking it.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CTrees wrote:
Mizike wrote:
This is possibly not true! Swedanaviawayland has a type of tobacco called Snus which may not cause cancer. More tests need to be conducted but what evidence exists is quite interesting.


Well, one of the studies linked in that article did find an increase in incidence of pancreatic cancer, and the other studies show correlations between snus and other health issues, like heart disease, so... Better than smoking, at least?


well, that's what the snus manufacturers are saying, anyway.
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Mizike



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
CTrees wrote:
Mizike wrote:
This is possibly not true! Swedanaviawayland has a type of tobacco called Snus which may not cause cancer. More tests need to be conducted but what evidence exists is quite interesting.


Well, one of the studies linked in that article did find an increase in incidence of pancreatic cancer, and the other studies show correlations between snus and other health issues, like heart disease, so... Better than smoking, at least?


well, that's what the snus manufacturers are saying, anyway.


And the not-really-proving-anything-but-merits-more-study fact that Swedanaviawayland has a significantly lower rate of cancer than other Eurovilles
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The Highlord



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeD CHiKn wrote:
The Highlord wrote:
but since there are non-smoking ways to dose yourself with marijuana that are safe (as far as I know)


They still impair your judgment and therefore are just as "safe" as smoking it.

I'm talking about direct physiological effects caused by the marijuana, and separate injury/death due to doing something stupid while high out as a category. While lighting your house on fire is a way that smoking can kill you, it's something that would be ignored for the purposes of the current discussion, namely, the toxicology of the substances involved.
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nathan



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never understand why it matters all that much. People die all the time from things like acetaminophen.

If they came out with a new version of heroin with a similarly non-existent LD50, would the argument for legalization be equally convincing?
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Set



Joined: 17 May 2007
Posts: 505
Location: On a bed on a shoreline

PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQa70XP7Y6U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8a09UxXnqc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXvNDqkLxCE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fXqxKmsbTA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTxE_sZ295E

Edit: ah the hell with it, more can be found here if interested
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