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Misinformation ALERT: Famous People Giving Deadly Advice
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DeD CHiKn



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 10223
Location: Baltimore, Maryla*gunshot*

PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also they are offering the H1N1 Vaccine to me today. They told me its the live virus they would be spraying up my nose. I cant get it because I have a cold and my sneezing/ blowing of my nose would essentially be shooting the live virus into the air. Their words, not mine.
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The Highlord



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, the influenza bug is far too quick of a mutator to guarantee effectiveness even if you're hit by the "right" strain. However, that's the nature of the beast and not a fault of the vaccine. Even if the vaccine only offered a theoretical 20% increase in protection, let's say, the risk:reward means you should take it anyway, since there's virtually no risk in exchange for a 20% increase in protection. When I hear somebody say that the "merits and effectiveness" are questionable, I hear the cries of an anti-vaxer, not a person who decides that they themselves won't be vaccinated because they aren't in a risk group/local supplies are limited/etc.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Usagi Miyamoto wrote:
Maybe it's more a case of, the influenza vaccine isn't even capable of being 100% effective. Flu vaccine contains only a small but hopefully representative sample of the strains of influenza you might contract, meaning that you might still get the flu (maybe I should say, "a flu") even with a shot. The vaccine makers usually shoot for what they think the three predominant strains will be during the next flu season when they make up the vaccine, and if they guessed right, you're protected against, I dunno, maybe 60-80% of the flu variants you're likely to run into. If they guessed wrong, it might be only 20-40%. On the other hand, your measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination is good against practically 100% of exposures to measles, mumps, or rubella. We're comparing different kinds of things, here, when we talk about flu vaccine effectiveness, and naturally that leads to some confusion.

If I'm remembering correctly I wanna say influenza has a very high level of viral genetic drift, like one of the highest.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Highlord wrote:
Sure, the influenza bug is far too quick of a mutator to guarantee effectiveness even if you're hit by the "right" strain. However, that's the nature of the beast and not a fault of the vaccine. Even if the vaccine only offered a theoretical 20% increase in protection, let's say, the risk:reward means you should take it anyway, since there's virtually no risk in exchange for a 20% increase in protection. When I hear somebody say that the "merits and effectiveness" are questionable, I hear the cries of an anti-vaxer, not a person who decides that they themselves won't be vaccinated because they aren't in a risk group/local supplies are limited/etc.


ya ninja'd me. Almost every time I've tried to explain this to people they look at me funny. When people say dumb shit like "Why do I need biology in high school?" this is the kind of thing I think of, although I'm pretty sure I first learned about this back in 7th grade.
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Mizike



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: Iowa City

PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Highlord wrote:
Sure, the influenza bug is far too quick of a mutator to guarantee effectiveness even if you're hit by the "right" strain. However, that's the nature of the beast and not a fault of the vaccine. Even if the vaccine only offered a theoretical 20% increase in protection, let's say, the risk:reward means you should take it anyway, since there's virtually no risk in exchange for a 20% increase in protection. When I hear somebody say that the "merits and effectiveness" are questionable, I hear the cries of an anti-vaxer, not a person who decides that they themselves won't be vaccinated because they aren't in a risk group/local supplies are limited/etc.


You forget that my time and the cost of the vaccine itself are a part of the equation. For a 20% increase in protection (which really isn't the way it works, but we'll go with that anyway), it's just not worth it unless you have extenuating circumstances or an irrational fear of the flu.

Edit: And that's even ignoring the side effects.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mizike wrote:


You forget that my time and the cost of the vaccine itself are a part of the equation. For a 20% increase in protection (which really isn't the way it works, but we'll go with that anyway), it's just not worth it unless you have extenuating circumstances or an irrational fear of the flu.

Edit: And that's even ignoring the side effects.


The side-effects aren't really a big deal.
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The Highlord



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was simply conceding the effectiveness to be low; call it 20%, call it low, it doesn't matter for the point being made, which is that even a low impact is worth it considering its complications are frankly nil. However, saying that the flu shot is prohibitively expensive for you, being a healthy non-risk-group person, is not the same as saying you question its effectiveness and merit. Maybe I am just hung up on semantics.
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E-boy



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you are judging the effectiveness by cases of flu prevented sure 20% is probably in the ballpark. It's kinda hard to measure how many cases would have been much worse if the immune system hadn't been primed in advance though.

There is strong evidence that previous exposure even in the form of a vaccine does, in fact, produce a more robust immune response more quickly. Even if this doesn't prevent the flu it might still save lives.

incidentally one fifth is no mean number. If one fifth of the people who died in the pandemic at the end of the last century had survived you're talking about four million people.

I understand your point and I don't believe it should be touted as 100% effective. I haven't seen anyone suggest that though. Any and all preventative measures in a pandemic even if they are only slightly effective save lives. It should also be noted that a sufficiently high proportion of a population having immunity to a communicable disease can slow or even stop a pandemic in it's tracks. Not everyone has to be immune, but the more people who are the less options for spread a virus has.
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Mizike



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: Iowa City

PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once again, I think we are talking about different things.

I'm talking about the seasonal flu vaccine, which even the WHO does not recommend for healthy young adults unless they word in a medical field.


For most of this thread, people have been ranting about the novel H1N1 vaccine despite the fact that it has been to date less dangerous than seasonal flu.


The quotes in the first post were about childhood vaccines (MMR et al.).
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E-boy



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: Virginia (Much barfiness)

PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I have to grant you your point on the seasonal vaccine. A) the older you get (up to about fifties or so at a rough guess, after a while your immune system is increasingly compromised by aging though) the more experience your immune system has with influenza and the less often you get it. So a vaccination for a flu that will probably not be a major threat to your health and that isn't produced in enough quantity for everyone anyway is a bit silly. It certainly makes sense to vaccinate high risk folks though.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A part of me almost wishes that this wasn't reported on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URHhyP4lmQ4
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The Highlord



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Journalism is the worst.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the school my mom drives bus for has made national headlines. I call it the Stroudsburgia effect: if it exist, there's probably a shitty version of it in or around Stroudsburg, PA

School scraps swine flu vaccine after 'error'

Quote:
PENNSYLVANIA: A school district in Pennsylvania had to toss 5,000 doses of Swine Flu vaccine.

The Stroudsburg Area School District was holding the doses for clinics later this week.

People like Madeline Redesky couldn't believe the news. She recalled, "I said 'oops -- somebody made a big mistake."

The State Department of Health delivered the vaccine to Stroudsburg High School on Friday with instructions to keep it between 35 and 46 degrees.

District Superintendent John Toleno said the school nurse put the vaccine in a refrigerator with a special thermometer.

Everything seemed fine, until the next day. Toleno explained,

"When my Director of Maintenance came in on Saturday morning he realized that the temperature dipped just right around 30 degrees."

That means the vaccines got too cold to use.

The Superintendent said no people are to blame here - it was simply a mechanical error in the refrigerator.

He added, "It's unfortunate. And it's embarrassing for the district. We were hoping to get this out as a community service for our students and we're still hoping to provide that service."

Other area school districts will receive their vaccines soon.

Toleno hopes they will have some left over that they can send to Stroudsburg.

He said, "It's one of those things we have to deal with and then try to move on."

The State Department of Health called the incident "unfortunate."

A spokesperson said the department will not take any action against the school district.

It will try to help find replacement vaccines.

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Dro



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/11/desiree_jennings_cured.php?utm_source=selectfeed&utm_medium=rss
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