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Heroes, Mythology, and Religion
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E-boy



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's worth noting on further thought the latitudes the Norse peoples live at get most of their water in the form of melting snow, and ice rather than seasonal rains. It would probably take a hell of a warm turn to induce major flooding there. There have been such warmings, but those areas weren't habitable until after they had occurred. The same is true of the British Isles they were only inhabited by people and most other animals sporadically. when the ice sheets grew and covered them people left or died, and didn't come back until plants and animals started recolonizing those areas after the warm ups. The difference being that Scandinavia is far enough north to keep most of it's water locked up as relatively slow melting ice.

Look on the bright side though, given anthropogenic warming we might get some brand new flood myths out of that part of the world. Or if the conveyer currents fail as some think might happen they could become uninhabitable again along with parts of the eastern US.
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Sam the Eagle



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

E-boy wrote:
Sam the Eagle wrote:
E-boy wrote:

The near ubiquity of flood myths is largely due to human habitat preferences. Even in this modern age of pumps, pipes, and mass irrigation 80% of humanity lives on coastlines of river banks. Seasonal flooding is a reality that only got worse with agriculture and wide spread cutting down of forests to make more room for it. In the old world you can add the Black sea experience to the list of reasons for flood myths. It's only about six thousand years old and when the natural damn holding back the mediteranean finally broke it was like Niagra falls multiplied by ten thousand for YEARS.


Read an article recently mentioning the Mediterranean' flooding might have happened in fact within a month, not year, span. The study was based on Gibraltar's isthmus floor strata analysis.

And, barring a mistake, I don't recall of a flooding myth in Norse mythos. Celtic version of flooding isn't known to me either but for Bretonnic' legend that, in the future, earth will be swallowed by inner sea.


Well I did say Near ubiquitous. Smile It's hard to say how long it may have taken the black sea to flood in it's entirety. However, it had to have happened reasonably quickly as there has been minimal layer mixing which they know because the depths are nearly oxygen free. There are near perfectly preserved villages down there. As for how one defines 'reasonably quick' the piece I read on it was pretty conservative. There may well be newer estimates based on better numbers now.


Just re-checked the paper. According to that study, the scientists estimates the Med. filled within 2 years. No mention of Black sea.

On Celts. What's interesting here is they migrated from northern Indian's sub-continent. The Indus river, and basin, had flood, cf. Vishnu's avatar Matsya legend, and it would be a fair bet to think they were aware of the legend beforehand, as the Indus valley is the likely birthplace of Indian sub-continent civilisation.
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E-boy



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mediteranean indundation happened long before the black sea. LONG LONG LONG before. I brought up the black sea specificially because it's creation coincided pretty closely with the dawn of recorded history. There were people living in what was then a river valley, and then OOPSIE! No more home town.

I'm not really arguing your point that not all cultures have flood myths. As far as I know they don't. I just find it easier to allow the "what if" to the folks making the argument that they are proof of a global indundation. So that I can then point out the reasons why many cultures do, in fact, have them. Which is simply because people lived in flood prone areas in some cases, even being dependent on seasonal flooding, like in the nile delta.

You are right in arguing my use of the phrase "Near ubiquitous". I really couldn't resist though. I spend a lot of time discussing these matters with bible belters and as I said above it's just easier to make a point with them if you don't tear every single thing they say apart. Such myths are, however, common enough for them to leap to that conclusion.
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E-boy



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I place the "flood myth" commonality theory on the same level I put the "Pyramids in the americas versus pyramids in egypt" commonality theory. Which is to say there are already well established and not terribly controversial underlying reasons for both.

Granted those reasons aren't as exciting as the idea of Egypt travelling to meso america or a global flood.

In the same vein if I hear too much more credulous discussion of the world ending in 2012 I may have to become a hermit.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

E-boy wrote:

Granted those reasons aren't as exciting as the idea of Egypt travelling to meso america or a global flood.

Or fucking ALIENS! who visited our earth, helped build a few pyramids and then went away to build fusion-reactors on distant planets.


Man, crazy conspiracy-theories are way more fun than regular old reason.
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Sam the Eagle



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

E-boy wrote:
The mediteranean indundation happened long before the black sea. LONG LONG LONG before. I brought up the black sea specificially because it's creation coincided pretty closely with the dawn of recorded history. There were people living in what was then a river valley, and then OOPSIE! No more home town.

I'm not really arguing your point that not all cultures have flood myths. As far as I know they don't. I just find it easier to allow the "what if" to the folks making the argument that they are proof of a global indundation. So that I can then point out the reasons why many cultures do, in fact, have them. Which is simply because people lived in flood prone areas in some cases, even being dependent on seasonal flooding, like in the nile delta.

You are right in arguing my use of the phrase "Near ubiquitous". I really couldn't resist though. I spend a lot of time discussing these matters with bible belters and as I said above it's just easier to make a point with them if you don't tear every single thing they say apart. Such myths are, however, common enough for them to leap to that conclusion.


My bad. I was just illustrating evidence that flooding could be pretty dramatic and affect more than one shorebound civilisation. We do agree otherwise.
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E-boy



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of prehistorical disasters.... Evidence for the climate changing eruption of a super volcano around 70,000 years ago is accumulating. I can't for the life of me remember it's name. Sad However it went off way back when and judging from genetic evidence, very nearly drove our species to extinction. It's thought that every one of us is descended from a population of folks that was between 250 and 2500 people.

Now THAT is a disaster fitting legend. Alas, if there were oral traditions about that event (and I don't see how there couldn't have been) they have long since faded away.
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The Highlord



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Toba
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E-boy



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you kindly.

There's another super volcano closer to home that may or may not be due to erupt (due in geological time fortunately. We're probably not going to see any nastiness for at least a few tens of thousands of years or more) in Yellow Stone. One of it's past eruptions dropped three feet of ash as far away as Nebraska. If it were to actively erupt again it could, quite literally, end civilization as we know it.

I also read some interesting tidbits about an early american impact theory. There is some evidence in the form of a dispersal of bucky balls and other impact products over a wide area of the North America dating back to about the time the clovis people disappeared from the archaeological record. After a bit of a gap Folsom points show up. This also coincides with a mass die off of mega-fauna. The lack of crater, they say, is explainable by a possible ice sheet impact. The also posit that the impact might well have changed the course of some large rivers by eliminating the ice blocking their path and thus had even longer ranging climatic effects than just the ones relating to debris.

It's still open to quite a lot of debate, but I find it interesting.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

E-boy wrote:
The mediteranean indundation happened long before the black sea. LONG LONG LONG before.

Would I be wrong in saying that the Mediteranean never really 'inundated'? It just formed by Africa and Europe coming closer to each other, no?
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E-boy



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It flooded about five million years ago. Well before modern humans existed.

Continental movements are on EVEN longer time scales.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8404363.stm

*Edited to add link*
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
E-boy wrote:

Granted those reasons aren't as exciting as the idea of Egypt travelling to meso america or a global flood.

Or fucking ALIENS! who visited our earth, helped build a few pyramids and then went away to build fusion-reactors on distant planets.


...are you dissing the stargates?

ARE YOU?????
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E-boy



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AHA! Now we know what kind of science fiction geek Mouse is! Frankly, I had her pegged for a Trekkie.

So which of the stargate franchises is your favorite dear mousey? SG1, or Atlantis?

My science fiction fixes these days come primarily from Stargate Atlantis, Dr. Who, and Torchwood. I will watch old star trek episodes occasionally.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i've probably seen pretty much all of the original ST; watched most of deep space nine, but i never really got into the other series.

i really liked the team dynamic in SG1 (and michael shanks), but atlantis was starting to grow on me when it got cancelled. not too sure about the new one - was last week's show an uncredited rerun, out of order, or did rush miraculously return to the ship during a commercial?

i am eagerly awaiting the return of dr. who, disappointed because my local cable co. doesn't seem to have a channel that carries torchwood (that i've found - or else it is in one of those high-end, high-priced packages where i'm not interested in anything else).

oh, and i watched every single episode of babylon 5. at least once. and what was with canceling crusade so quickly?
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E-boy



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm really not sure why they cancel shows I like... Maybe I have bad tastes?

At the risk of being ridiculed I rather liked fire fly. They didn't even end up airing the whole season.

You can get torchwood via Itunes if you care to. That's how I get it. That and occasionally picking up DVD's at the store. Both it and Dr. who can be a bit cheesy at times, but to me that's part of their charm. I think if they do anymore torchwood they'll just about have to re-invent it. I am not at all sure what to make of the new dr. who. I have never seen any of the guy replacing David Tenant's work.
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