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The Conscientious Sadist
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E-boy



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 1552
Location: Virginia (Much barfiness)

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely... Except for the bit about the average neanderthal woman being able to break me in half. Hell even a three year old (mind you they grew faster so a three year old was a big bigger in a neanderthal) could toss around two hundred pounds or so (based on muscle marks on the bones).

That's not even going into what would happen if you brought neanderthal daddy's daughter home late, or Neanderthal hubby walked in on you with wifeypooh.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

E-boy wrote:
Brain size is only extremely roughly correlated with intelligence. Modern humans with brains as tiny as 900 CC's can be found who are quite functional and even exceptional.

Women have smaller brains than men, as it happens. They use their brain more efficiently, though.
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E-boy



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That and brain size is correlated highly with body mass in humans. Male brains are about as much bigger than female brains as male bodies are compared to female bodies.

The same correlation means neanderthal brains were not much larger than ours, if at all, in any absolute sense as they were substantially more heavily built.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dazedb42 wrote:

and they were sexy too.


interesting - the show was saying only modern humans made jewelry.

...and here i thought i could trust alan alda.
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The Highlord



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ridicuously sexy, since they also wore makeup (maybe).
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E-boy



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can trust Alan Alda. They were just being very conservative. Evidence of symbolic behavior is all over the place for early moderns. Beads, musical instruments, and art. For Neanderthals it's rather sparse. This may be due to environmental pressures changing the way they lived.

Early moderns were, prior to arriving in Europe, not that different technologically or culturally in ways that left evidence. There were what appear to be several false starts in Africa where extremely advanced implements like bone harpoon points beads and other hallmarks associated with moderns show up and then vanish again. One theory put forth for this is that competition drove innovation, but when population densities were low the need for the advanced behaviors dwindled. Evidence of this can be seen in relatively modern times among the natives of New Zealand who used relatively primitive implements compared to aborigines in Australia whom they had contact with and who used bows and arrows. It looks very like they arrived in New Zealand with a better tool kit than they ended up with.

There is a distinction between early and classic neanderthals. The latter showing much more evidence of cold climate adaptation. With sparser pickings in a colder environment and focusing on the kinds of game they did perhaps there was less direct competition among them and they simply didn't need the added behavioral complexity. They appeared to have stuck mostly to small family groups based on what evidence is being found and such groups, even if they chose to re-adopt more advanced behaviors would have had no easy time sharing them with others outside their group. Craftsmanship takes time to learn and there is evidence (Chatelperonian (SP?) assemblages that are very nearly the equal of modern tools of the same period) that they were quick studies.

I'm inclined to believe that the differences between us cognitively weren't that large. We had the advantage of larger groups in more direct competition to drive innovation. I'm giving Neanderthals the benefit of the doubt, but most who study them suggest they weren't as behaviorally flexible (whether that's due to different living arrangements or physical specialization I don't know). Artifacts of symbolic import are found for neanderthals and it's a big deal when they are, but it's a big deal because there are so very few of them. I'll close with a reminder that for large swathes of time anatomically modern humans behaved very much like neanderthals and didn't leave a lot of evidence of symbolic behavior. The occasional symbolic flare ups and disappearance of more modern trappings not withstanding. If anything that makes me even more inclined to believe that neanderthals could and occasionally did make the same leap even if they didn't get the chance to reach the full flower we did.

It's a bit sad to me really. These days you often hear the refrain "are we alone?" and we weren't. At one time there were us, Neanderthals, and potential relict H. Erectus populations (as well as those hobbit critters who are looking less like H. Erectus than originally thought). Three different species of hominid (possibly four) all here sharing the planet.
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Yorick



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

E-boy wrote:
You can trust Alan Alda.

that's what he WANTS you to think
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E-boy



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well.... I'm not supposed to tell you, but he's a Neanderthal under all that make up. A really pissed off old Bitter bastard. He plotted mostly behind the scenes until those f***ing GEICO commercials pushed him right over the edge... Now that global warming is really starting to pick up he can finally see the fruits of his labors coming to pass... But I've said too much. If he finds out he'll.... URK! *Thud*
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

....so he just played hawkeye all those years to gain our trust........
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Amon



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:04 am    Post subject: Re: The Conscientious Sadist Reply with quote

nathan wrote:
When is violence justified? Personally? Socially?

Corollary: when have you been violent (with or without premeditation)?


Nice thread nathan.

Violence is relative - it spreads like wild fire. Justifications aren't necessary, as the only constant is more violence; day in, day out. Animals tend to indulge in such instances. I like watching the news. It's funny how things are "justified" and "rationalized" by those particular people.
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The Highlord



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justification is always required.
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Yorick



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I justify my violence with violence.
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DeD CHiKn



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yorick wrote:
I justify my violence with violence.


Two wrongs dont make a right, let might make right!
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Amon



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Highlord wrote:
Justification is always required.


excuses excuses
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