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[fucked up]So...uh, that wikileaks thing
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6060
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

at the very least the US Marines adopted much stricter rules of engagement for their offensive in Marjah earlier this year. i don't know if those rules extend throughout the armed forces or even if they're in force for other areas or engagements. but, uh, things do change, even in the military.
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Guest



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 2178

PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Mouse it wont change even if you DO write and bitch about it, people died in protests in the sixties about crap like this and here we are 50 years later with the same stuff going on. If it makes you feel better to write your congressman and be outraged on the internet that's fine, but in a month there will be some new outrage that attracts peoples attention and any baby steps that may have been accomplished toward dealing with this one will be buried in committee. Look at the valdez scandal. People have been waiting for government action on that for the majority of my life at this point. It wont change because a significant portion of america just doesnt give a shit, or is cheering it on. Our country kind of sucks that way.

It's a goddamn tragedy, but the place is a war zone. Mistakes and monsters are made in a war zone and no amount of paper treaty and rules of engagement is going to completely prevent it from happening.


really? nothing ever, ever changes?

Quote:
In the aftermath of the Valdez disaster, the U.S. government led a global push to outlaw single-hull vessels.
Quote:
The International Maritime Organization, the shipping division of the United Nations, will ban single-hull tankers starting next year.


oh, but it didn't happen instantly, so it's not a change.

huh - so that thing tinkeringIdiot posted, about the head of joint special operations apologizing for the death of civilians, AT THE SCENE OF THE KILLINGS - well, clearly, that has nothing to do with change. and that admiral, i'm sure he's happy to go out and do that, he's sure not going to agitate for any change in how military operations are done.

i guess that's why we still have slavery and child labor and women can't even own property, because nothing anyone does ever changes anything.

and certainly we don't view the wars in iraq and afghanistan any differently than people did vietnam in 1963 and 64. no, all those protesters just wasted their time. no change in public opinion about wars at all, since then.

yeah, you're right, monkey. best to sit on our butts and just accept any outrage that happens. because nothing in the course of human history has ever changed as a result of public opinion.


/vote Mouse
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Yeah war is pretty goddamned fucked up by its nature and the two most fucked up and regrettable parts about it are collateral killings and blue on blue, both of which will happen frequently. Clemency, apology, and genuine regret is helpful both morally and tactically.

From our perspectives this is really all we can say. Whenever mistakes are made in war it always results in more people dying, either on one side or the other or both.
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Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: On edge

PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Veteran of "Collateral Murder" Company Speaks Out

WASHINGTON - April 9 - Josh Stieber, who is a former soldier of the “Collateral Murder” Company, says that the acts of brutality caught on film and recently released via Wikileaks are not isolated instances, but were commonplace during his tour of duty.



“A lot of my friends are in that video,” says Stieber. “After watching the video, I would definitely say that that is, nine times out of ten, the way things ended up. Killing was following military protocol. It was going along with the rules as they are.”



Stieber deployed to Baghdad with Bravo Company 2-16, whose members were involved in the incident captured in Wikileaks' “Collateral Murder” video, whichhas made international headlines by depicting a July 2007 shooting incident outside of Baghdad in which over a dozen people, including two Reuters employees, were killed. Although he was not present at the scene of the video, he knows those who were involved and is familiar with the environment. Stieber, who now works to promote peace and alternatives to war, is speaking publicly about his time in Iraq and the incident captured in this video.



“If these videos shock and revolt you, they show the reality of what war is like,” says Stieber. “If you don’t like what you see in them, it means we should be working harder towards alternatives to war.”



Stieber currently lives in Washington, D.C.



BACKGROUND ON JOSH STIEBER:
Branch of service: United States Army (USA)

Unit: 1st ID

Rank: Spc.

Home: Laytonsville, Maryland

Served in: Baghdad (Rustamiyah) 07-08 Fort Riley, KS 06-07, 08-09



Very interesting interview, I recommend everyone listen to it: Salon Radio: Spc. Josh Stieber on WikiLeaks video
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Him



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This makes me kind of proud: http://www.euractiv.com/en/infosociety/sweden-gives-legal-shelter-controversial-wikileaks-site-news-426138
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:33 am    Post subject: Helpful to who? Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Yeah war is pretty goddamned fucked up by its nature and the two most fucked up and regrettable parts about it are collateral killings and blue on blue, both of which will happen frequently. Clemency, apology, and genuine regret is helpful both morally and tactically.


Don't forget imagery.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok explain?
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Snorri



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
ok explain?


i suppose he's talking bout how it's good for the image of the military to acknowledge these things or something.


but, you know, it's thy so he could be making a completely seperate point.
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:53 am    Post subject: There is always a network of points to make Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
ok explain?


The "military" is quite adept at rationalizing a number of ethical frameworks to suit their needs at a given time.

They can defend their framework(s) intellectually almost always and in worst case scenarios will shift the blame on individuals involved, ie the ones following orders.

Imagery is used to increase the effectiveness of that technique. It gives a definite picture of individuals and their actions involving humanity, and has time and again manipulated peoples emotions and opinions into excessive focus on singular events.

The transparency of sites such as wikileaks allows for the possibility of misleading propaganda not necessarily leaked by a "concerned whistleblower" to be considered an objective view of events as they transpire.

It is a damn insult to apologize for the incident while maintaining the status quo, but because mass media has a modularized view of reality there really isn't any choice in the matter.
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Vox Raucus



Joined: 31 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:13 pm    Post subject: Re: There is always a network of points to make Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:
Sam wrote:
ok explain?


The "military"

I stopped reading at this point.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:18 pm    Post subject: Re: There is always a network of points to make Reply with quote

Vox Raucus wrote:
Thy Brilliance wrote:
Sam wrote:
ok explain?


The "military"

I stopped reading at this point.

It was a good decision.
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The Highlord



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:33 pm    Post subject: Re: There is always a network of points to make Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Vox Raucus wrote:
Thy Brilliance wrote:
Sam wrote:
ok explain?


The "military"

I stopped reading at this point.

It was a good decision.

I made this joke at one point and was lambasted for it. Tossers.
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:53 am    Post subject: Hint: read snorri's post. Reply with quote

Vox Raucus wrote:
Thy Brilliance wrote:
Sam wrote:
ok explain?


The "military"

I stopped reading at this point.


Went right over your head.
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Yorick



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:06 am    Post subject: Re: Hint: read snorri's post. Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:
Vox Raucus wrote:
Thy Brilliance wrote:
Sam wrote:
ok explain?


The "military"

I stopped reading at this point.


Went right over your head.

guess you haven't gotten his range yet ...
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