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Let's build a religion
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Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10656

PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 1:45 pm    Post subject: Let's build a religion Reply with quote

or, failing that, a set of guiding principles. There's good things to be salvaged from religion and I'd like to make a little, non-comprehensive list of "best practices". Pragmatic ideals to be followed as and when you feel like it. The simpler the better.

1. Do unto others...
Because for me it pretty much sums up morality. It degrades gracefully too: when it fails it provides a try-to-be-nice basis for negotiating the more sophisticated case-by-case answers.
2. Be responsible for your own actions and for nobody else's.
This one's to help you sleep at night. May fail horribly for parents, older siblings, teachers etc.
3. Experiment only on yourself. Don't advise what you don't understand.
This is my feeble attempt to ban mysticism, dogmatism and any kind of "unnatural" act people do as a result of shaky reasoning (or shaky foundations for).

Let's get a war on!
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Mizike



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doesn't 2 include 3?
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I won't not say something when I see one person abusing another.
I will not let someone talk to me in an abusive tone if I think they are not joking.
I will not persue a relationship with a girl with a boyfriend or with a girl in a "dating relationship" if she really cares about the guy. If she comes up to me, it's a different story, but I won't try to weed myself in there. I think this is very dick thing to do and have stopped being friends with more than one person for them doing this.
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Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mizike wrote:
Doesn't 2 include 3?


good call! My thinking on point 2 was entirely along the lines of feeling responsible for others' past deeds, not making their decisions for them. So either that distinction can be made more explicit or they can be merged
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you forgot the santa claus clause: You better be good for goodness sake i.e. good works should be done for the sake of doing good w/o any motivation for any type of compensation or reward. I think even saying you're doing good for the satisfaction it brings is still a type of selfishness. It's the antithesis of pride, of selfishness.

Mind you I'm not saying this is something obtainable, it's more of an ideal to constantly struggle towards.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thou shalt not question Stephen Fry
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Him



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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do unto others sounds like fun.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
Do unto others sounds like fun.

I don't think the judge will accept that
But your honor, she fucked me first...
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Yorick



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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no use for cults. begone! Away with you!
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Him



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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Him wrote:
Do unto others sounds like fun.

I don't think the judge will accept that
But your honor, she fucked me first...

Pssh, just because he's upset that he has never "gone south" with his old lady and I have.

But I was thinking more Do Unto Others as a general commandment sounds fun.
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Mikewee777



Joined: 16 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
Him wrote:
Do unto others sounds like fun.

I don't think the judge will accept that
But your honor, she fucked me first...

Pssh, just because he's upset that he has never "gone south" with his old lady and I have.

But I was thinking more Do Unto Others as a general commandment sounds fun.


Do unto others doesn't work for the criminally insane. They think they deserve torture and death. Therefore, they do it to others in hopes that the same will be done to themselves. This foundation of morality is the reason why Atheism is the most sane religion recognized by the united states government.
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Vox Raucus



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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 1:50 am    Post subject: Re: Let's build a religion Reply with quote

Michael wrote:
1. Do unto others...Because for me it pretty much sums up morality. It degrades gracefully too: when it fails it provides a try-to-be-nice basis for negotiating the more sophisticated case-by-case answers.

Why this? What sort of foundation does this ethic have? Why is this statement better than "Do what you can get away with"?

Quote:
2. Be responsible for your own actions and for nobody else's.
This one's to help you sleep at night. May fail horribly for parents, older siblings, teachers etc.

While I think this is excellent advice, I fail to see how it it is an ethical premise.[/quote]

Quote:
3. Experiment only on yourself. Don't advise what you don't understand.
This is my feeble attempt to ban mysticism, dogmatism and any kind of "unnatural" act people do as a result of shaky reasoning (or shaky foundations for).

Excellent suggestion, but it directly begs the question of number 1, as I've already noted. If you're going to includes this in your ethics, you better make sure that all your statements are justifiable and reasonable.

Personally, while I think the effort is commendable, I doubt the success of any ethical framework. There are only three potential options for grounding such a framework - metaphysics (a dead end), religion (requires an act of faith) or some sort of communitarian understanding (inevitably a sketchy foundation).
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Sam



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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you're all jumping the gun

you have to be shitty sci-fi authors first
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Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:24 am    Post subject: Re: Let's build a religion Reply with quote

Vox Raucus wrote:
Michael wrote:
1. Do unto others...Because for me it pretty much sums up morality. It degrades gracefully too: when it fails it provides a try-to-be-nice basis for negotiating the more sophisticated case-by-case answers.

Why this? What sort of foundation does this ethic have? Why is this statement better than "Do what you can get away with"?

Quote:
3. Experiment only on yourself. Don't advise what you don't understand.
This is my feeble attempt to ban mysticism, dogmatism and any kind of "unnatural" act people do as a result of shaky reasoning (or shaky foundations for).

Excellent suggestion, but it directly begs the question of number 1, as I've already noted. If you're going to includes this in your ethics, you better make sure that all your statements are justifiable and reasonable.

Personally, while I think the effort is commendable, I doubt the success of any ethical framework. There are only three potential options for grounding such a framework - metaphysics (a dead end), religion (requires an act of faith) or some sort of communitarian understanding (inevitably a sketchy foundation).


Could I replace 1 with try to be good...?
You're absolutely right it doesn't have much of a logical underpinning. I get lost in philosophical arguments on ethics & morality real quick, so going by 3 I can't advise anything on those grounds. Very Happy
Having failed to be justifiably good I'm trying to be nice.

By the same token, since I don't believe you can reason your way from some axioms (whatever they may be) up to answer to ethical* decisions, 3 says don't try. Basically I'm trying to catch out the convoluted arguments that make people try to exorcise demons from gay people, leave friends & family for cults or ideas, blow themselves up in a shopping mall.



* As a shallow mathy programmer atheist guy, I regard as "ethical" all questions involving human relations that can't be solved in any other way.


** Thank you Sam. I am delighted to hear you don't find my sci-fi shitty. That Leia can be one horny bitch sometimes.
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Sam the Eagle



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll bite.

Some questions needs to be cleared up before setting some principles :

- Is there such a thing called "soul", all faiths says yes but let's make sure, and what it's purpose or value?.

- You go one life one afterlife or go metempsychosis, or middle path ?.

- What do you "gain", if anything, by being a worshipper?.

- Do you work within current scientific knowledge, offers another option, focus on spiritual and let mundane be mundane, or try to accomodate new theories to the current body of knowledge?.

- To proselytize or not proselytize ?.

- I'd add the origin of "Evil" problem to the list, but as it presumes evil has a outside source in the first place; that's up to you.

Enjoy Twisted Evil
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