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Let's build a religion
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Falkonn



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The golden rule is definitely a good place to start as it is in every major world religion somewhere.

Another set of rules like that is the 10 commandments, they are somewhere in every major world religion.

As such, I suggest starting there and building the rest on a case by case basis. As long as it doesn't violate those 11, then go for it imo.
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Vox Raucus



Joined: 31 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 2:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Let's build a religion Reply with quote

Michael wrote:
Could I replace 1 with try to be good...?

Absolutely not, that's worse than what was there originally. What is "good" and what sort of actions achieve this "goodness". What is the motivation for good actions? It's includes all the problems of the first statement and adds to them.

Quote:
You're absolutely right it doesn't have much of a logical underpinning. I get lost in philosophical arguments on ethics & morality real quick, so going by 3 I can't advise anything on those grounds. Very Happy
Having failed to be justifiably good I'm trying to be nice.

I think this is probably the best possible starting point for your ethics, with a couple of caveats. Essentially what you're saying is that you're not interested in demonstrating the ultimate truth of your ethical framework. Your interest is in putting together ethics that are internally consistent and reasonable. However, (here's the caveats) implicit in that statement is the fact that you acknowledge there is no way of demonstrating that your ethics are better than anyone elses. They are simply the ethics you have chosen, and the success of that framework depends on how many other people you can convince to adopt them. The second caveat is that your ethics can only ever be personal - you cannot hold other people to account for an ethical framework that you have chosen regardless of foundation. Your ethics only ever apply to yourself, so it is impossible to judge others for their ethical decisions. You might disagree with them, but you have no way in which to demonstrate that their chosen ethics are wrong. You can point out the places in which they are internally inconsistent, but you can't actually demonstrate that they are wrong in their ethical decisions.

This is a good/bad thing. It's bad because it removes the possibility of arguing against ethical frameworks that cause real harm. It's good because it puts the emphasis squarely on yourself. One of the problems with religious ethics is that the followers generally spend more time pointing out how other people should put their lives in order rather than putting themselves in order (ironically, Jesus had a great deal to say about this, all negative).

All that to say that we've come full circle back to your eminently commendable first proposition:

1. Treat others as you would like to be treated.

to which we may add a second:

2. Do not concern yourself with the ethical frameworks of others.

@StE - I think it's best if we leave that can of worms closed. Razz
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Sam the Eagle



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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Let's build a religion Reply with quote

Vox Raucus wrote:

@StE - I think it's best if we leave that can of worms closed. Razz


Option half-serious :
- Consider a Nietzschian set of beliefs, "As you gaze into the can of worms, so the can of worms looks back at you".

Option serious :
- Awww, you're no fun anymore Razz


May I suggest a locally pertinent rule instead :

- Thou shall not troll

@ Falkonn : I beg to disagree, lack of rules, or obscures ones, are the trademarks of zen (koan) or sufi teachings.
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Yorick



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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Let's build a religion Reply with quote

Michael wrote:


Could I replace 1 with try to be good...?

be good be good be good
be good be good be good
be good be good be good
be good Johhhhhhhny

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Dro



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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Michael's first idea, which was a 'best practices', which I am thinking is different from a set of guiding principles motivated by an ethical framework. I guess it can veer into ethical territory pretty quickly though.

So I would say "1. Treat others as you would like to be treated." and give some empirical evidence that when you dick someone over, it usually ends up making life worse for you and the other person, so why do it?

I would add, "Practice thinking about how an action can have impacts far beyond the immediate and local." My observation is that decision-making is too dominated by the results we can quickly see. Examples range from impulse buying (bad for a long-term budget), to not evaluating carbon impacts (bad for long-term health of planet). So we need to add a mental checklist about how an action may affect us and others next month and in other countries.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This reminds me, after reading up a bunch on game theory this past weekend I realized I've espoused striving for Pareto optimality for years w/o even knowing what it is. It almost seems like some have this sadistic desire to get ahead by stepping on others but I think in most cases it's just a combo of selfishness and greed.
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Kitten



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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this thread reminded me of this

more like rules to live happily
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Mr_Moustache



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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Drink beer
2. Drink some port
3. Drink Scotch
4. ????
5. Profit
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kitten wrote:
this thread reminded me of this

more like rules to live happily


What do you think the Bible or any other religious text REALLY is? Wink
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam the Eagle wrote:
I'll bite.

Some questions needs to be cleared up before setting some principles :

- Is there such a thing called "soul", all faiths says yes but let's make sure, and what it's purpose or value?.


i think this goes under 2) - don't be responsible for other people. you want a soul, you can have one, but don't try to impose (or remove) one on me.

Sam the Eagle wrote:

- You go one life one afterlife or go metempsychosis, or middle path ?.


i vote we go with the afterlife terry pratchett has on discworld: whatever you think will happen to you after death, is what will happen to you after death.


Sam the Eagle wrote:
- What do you "gain", if anything, by being a worshipper?.

other people not beating you up for being an annyoying dick?

Sam the Eagle wrote:
- Do you work within current scientific knowledge, offers another option, focus on spiritual and let mundane be mundane, or try to accomodate new theories to the current body of knowledge?.


see, now you are trying to found a mythology. it's true that many religions have them, but they may not be absolutely necessary.

Sam the Eagle wrote:
- To proselytize or not proselytize ?.

NOT: see proposition #2. although that _does_ make it hard to get other people to follow the failth. which is maybe the biggest problem here.

well, that, and there appears to be no basis for profit.


personally, i would go with one basic rule:

1) don't screw over any one else.
1a) the other person gets to determine whether or not they are being screwed over.

except you would have to have legal exceptions. a paranoid schizophrenic would probably consider you were screwing him over if you got him committed for treatment, but in fact if you leave him untreated, you are risking him and possibly placing others at risk.
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Kitten



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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Kitten wrote:
this thread reminded me of this

more like rules to live happily


What do you think the Bible or any other religious text REALLY is? Wink


PILLAGING VILLAGES AND KILLING BABIES with some conversion and erecting of missions.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kitten wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
Kitten wrote:
this thread reminded me of this

more like rules to live happily


What do you think the Bible or any other religious text REALLY is? Wink


PILLAGING VILLAGES AND KILLING BABIES with some conversion and erecting of missions.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory
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nathan



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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Assume all your past actions and beliefs may have been wrong
2) Do what appears right
3) Wash, rinse, repeat
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reasonablymad



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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I postulate that everyone who takes this thread seriously already ostensibly exists as a group of agnostic misfit seekers of either rational or empirical bent, and the enterprise itself is nothing more than an attempt to quantify those things which cannot be qualified, as per your own assumption.
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Vox Raucus



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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who you callin' a misfit? huh?
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