welcome to the fest
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Officer Mehserle shoots dangerous criminal, is convicted
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Willem



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:45 pm    Post subject: Officer Mehserle shoots dangerous criminal, is convicted Reply with quote

Alternatively:

"Shoot unarmed, restrained black man in the back, get off with involuntary manslaughter: Join BART police."

Mehserle found guilty of involuntary manslaughter

Cop shoots man in back. Man dies. Cop is convicted of involuntary manslaughter.

Good that he was convicted, right? No. Y'see, the man in question, Oscar Grant, unarmed, was pushed on the ground by several cops, had one cops knee in his neck when Mehserle stepped back, pulled his gun and shot him in his back. Pow. How do we know this? We have it on tape.

Now, this looks bad, right? Second degree murder bad, right? Maybe if we're very friendly, voluntary manslaughter bad. But he got involuntary manslaughter.

How, you ask, did that happen? The cop, after first saying that he thought Grant was pulling a gun (on the ground, knee in neck, hands in plain sight), claimed that he thought his gun was actually his taser.

He thought that he was tasering the unarmed, restrained man. Obviously, that's crazy on its own, but it's also bullshit. There are many, many differences between a gun and a taser (they don't look alike, they don't weigh they same, they don't feel the same, they're held in different holsters, etc). He actually aimed his gun, clearly seeing what he had in his hand. He's a trained police officer, right? He should know the difference, right?

EDIT: Don't know how correct this is, but:
Quote:
- The pistol was in a hip holster on his right side, the taser was in a shoulder holster on his left
- The pistol was 30oz, the taser is 7oz
- The pistol is metal, the taser is plastic
- The pistol is flat black, the taser has yellow warning stripes



His story is bullshit, right? Complete and utter bullshit. The jury (mostly white) ate it up and I'm guessing the only reason he wasn't cleared of all charges is because there was an actual video of the murderin'.

Fuck the police:


_________________
attitude of a street punk, only cutting selected words out of context to get onself excuse to let one's dirty mouth loose
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 3772

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wrongful death suit against... pretty much every group in the city. Doesn't make the verdict or the happening any better, but might prompt more oversight and better training to help avert this in future.

One can hope, anyway.
_________________
“Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation”
yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Guest



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 2178

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is that gonna be a meme now?

Yeah, this story is pretty ridiculous. Why didn't they just bring a taser and gun over and have the jury or the judge feel them and realise they feel completely different?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger
Willem



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm guessing they did. Which makes this verdict even more insane.
_________________
attitude of a street punk, only cutting selected words out of context to get onself excuse to let one's dirty mouth loose
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Willem



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



here is his taser
_________________
attitude of a street punk, only cutting selected words out of context to get onself excuse to let one's dirty mouth loose
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Willem



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Or this.

Note: this was taken by Oscar Grant himself (before being dead you see) and the dude would be Mehserle. After that picture, he would've put away his taser and a little later he pulled out his gun.

So yeah. wth

Edit: This then.
_________________
attitude of a street punk, only cutting selected words out of context to get onself excuse to let one's dirty mouth loose
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 3772

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An argument for why involuntary manslaughter was the correct verdict

Quote:
Based on [the wording of the relevant statues, cited in the full article], if a jury believed that Johannes Mehserle, in the heat of the moment, pulled the wrong weapon and fired it, that scenario seems to fit involuntary manslaughter. Grabbing the wrong weapon and firing displays, at least, criminal negligence. But a jury might have decided that there was not proof beyond a reasonable doubt of conscious disregard for human life (as required for implied malice, necessary to prove second degree murder).

I didn’t see the evidence. I don’t know. But I’m not yet ready to decry this as a travesty of justice. Is it terrible that a police officer shot an unarmed, cuffed man in the back? Yes. Do I suspect that there was some culpability? Absolutely. But it makes no sense to destroy the rule of law in order to save it. A police officer, like any other criminal defendant, enjoys the presumption of innocence.


*shrug* civil side will be more impressive.
_________________
“Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation”
yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Willem



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the other hand, there's no way he would've mistaken a gun for a taser.

Aside from the obvious differences in texture, weight, look and location of the gun (left shoulder holster to right hip holster), there's the picture of Mehserle holding his taser before the incident. He had it in his hand, he put it away in his holster, but minutes later he's already forgotten all this? I find that very, very hard to believe.
_________________
attitude of a street punk, only cutting selected words out of context to get onself excuse to let one's dirty mouth loose
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
andrew



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 4495
Location: the raging sea

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When was the last time you were in a high stress situation where you feared you or those around you might be shot at? In very (relatively) high stress situations, I've forgotten my name.

I'm not saying we should be running to defend this guy, but the "I drew the wrong weapon" excuse is pretty plausible.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Willem



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrew wrote:
When was the last time you were in a high stress situation where you feared you or those around you might be shot at? In very (relatively) high stress situations, I've forgotten my name.

I'm not saying we should be running to defend this guy, but the "I drew the wrong weapon" excuse is pretty plausible.

He's a cop in a fairly non-violent environment. He's surrounded by his colleagues. He's trained to handle situations like this. The guys is on the ground, being held down by someone with his knee in his neck and Mehserle calmly takes his gun and shoots him.

And why would he fear getting shot in such a situation? They were fighting, but there were no reports of weapons. Why would he think he's going to get shot at?

Why it isn't plausible.

He decides that while his partners are restraining Grant, this isn't enough.

He decides using a taser on the unarmed, restrained man on the ground would be a good idea.

He then moved his hand to his holster, but instead of going for his shoulder holster, where his taser would be, he goes for his hip holster.

He then grabs his gun. He mistakes the feel of his steel gun for the plastic of his taser. His taser has magically grown 23oz heavier.

He then aims his gun and mistakes the smooth, black surface of his gun for the yellow shine of the taser. He mistakes the shape of his gun as well.

He then squeezes his heavier-than-normal trigger and fires.

He was never in any real danger, he was surrounded by colleagues who were also carrying guns and tasers and all other people in the area were either being restrained or were sitting on the ground. If a cop can't handle that, he shouldn't even be allowed to use plastic forks.
_________________
attitude of a street punk, only cutting selected words out of context to get onself excuse to let one's dirty mouth loose
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DeD CHiKn



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 10227
Location: Baltimore, Maryla*gunshot*

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No no Andrew. The police are always in the wrong here.

Theres no possible way he didnt wake up that morning and say, "Im gonna kill an innocent person today."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Willem



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeD CHiKn wrote:

Y'see, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that he shot that guy knowing he was shooting that guy. I'm not saying that he planned it, maybe he didn't even want Grant to die. But he did shoot him and he knew he was using his gun.

And yeah, any way you look at this, the cop is in the wrong. It's just a matter of how wrong.
_________________
attitude of a street punk, only cutting selected words out of context to get onself excuse to let one's dirty mouth loose
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9551

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
On the other hand, there's no way he would've mistaken a gun for a taser.


This statement is untrue. Given what we know about cognitive response in stressful situations, stuff like this can easily happen. Or worse (re: Amadou Diallo).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Willem



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Quote:
On the other hand, there's no way he would've mistaken a gun for a taser.


This statement is untrue. Given what we know about cognitive response in stressful situations, stuff like this can easily happen. Or worse (re: Amadou Diallo).

I hope that's a joke.
_________________
attitude of a street punk, only cutting selected words out of context to get onself excuse to let one's dirty mouth loose
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
andrew



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 4495
Location: the raging sea

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willem wrote:
He's a cop in a fairly non-violent environment.

I've been a BART user for only a month, and can assure you that you have no clue what you're talking about.

Quote:
Why it isn't plausible.

He decides that while his partners are restraining Grant, this isn't enough.

He decides using a taser on the unarmed, restrained man on the ground would be a good idea.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the plausibility of mistaking one weapon for the other. I think both points are solid evidence that his judgment was pretty fucked, which actually supports the mistake scenario.

Quote:
He then moved his hand to his holster, but instead of going for his shoulder holster, where his taser would be, he goes for his hip holster.

He then grabs his gun. He mistakes the feel of his steel gun for the plastic of his taser. His taser has magically grown 23oz heavier.

He then aims his gun and mistakes the smooth, black surface of his gun for the yellow shine of the taser. He mistakes the shape of his gun as well.

He then squeezes his heavier-than-normal trigger and fires.

Do you understand the time frame this happens in? This is a pretty easy series of mistakes to make.

Some more examples of how high stress situations fuck with our ability to think, that you may actually be able to relate to:

1. My dad once got into a car accident where his brakes failed. He gently depressed the brake and realized something was wrong. He then pressed the brake harder. He then tried pressing it with both feet. He then hit the car in front of him. Time elapsed from beginning to end: about 5 seconds. My dad drives two hours every day, and had for at least the past 15 years as of the accident. He's not an unintelligent guy, either (a couple of harvard post-grad degrees). Yet it didn't occur to him, in that moment, to try the hand brake, swerve to the shoulder lane, or otherwise take steps to avoid the accident even after it was clear (and he understood) that the car's brakes had failed.

2. A friend of mine once got into a car accident because he stepped on the gas instead of the brake. When he realized what he was doing, his instinctive reaction was to step on the brake, but his foot was still on the gas pedal, so he just went faster. Time elapsed: about 5 seconds, from what he told me. Again, drives all the time, and again, smart guy, yet his ability to make extremely simple judgment calls was impeded.

Oh, and he was (and still is) an EMT driver, so he's also routinely exposed to high stress situations, specifically while in a moving vehicle. Fucking stupid, huh? And yet, these things happen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 1 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group