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Pope quotes 14th Century Christian Emperor, hilarity ensues
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kame



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 2565
Location: Alba Nuadh

PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:46 pm    Post subject: Pope quotes 14th Century Christian Emperor, hilarity ensues Reply with quote

BBC wrote:
Pope 'meant no offence' to Islam
The Vatican has denied that Pope Benedict XVI intended any offence to the Muslim religion, after a speech touching on the concept of holy war.

Speaking in Germany, the Pope quoted a 14th Century Christian emperor who said the Prophet Muhammad had brought the world only "evil and inhuman" things.

The remarks have angered clerics and commentators around the Muslim world.

However, the Vatican said the Pope had wanted to make clear that he rejected violence motivated by religion.

The pontiff had not intended to offend Muslims, the Vatican said.

"It certainly wasn't the intention of the Pope to carry out a deep examination of jihad (holy war) and of Muslim thought on it, much less to offend the sensibility of Muslim believers," said chief Vatican spokesman Federico Lombardi in a statement.

"It is clear that the Holy Father's intention is to cultivate a position of respect and dialogue towards other religions and cultures, and that clearly includes Islam."

But the statement has failed to quell criticism. In developments around the world:

* Pakistan summoned the Vatican's ambassador to express regret over the remarks, as parliament passed a resolution condemning the comments

* The head of the Muslim Brotherhood said the remarks "aroused the anger of the whole Islamic world"

* In Iraq, the comments were condemned at Friday prayers by followers of radical Shia cleric Moqtada al-Sadr

* The "hostile" remarks drew a demand for an apology from a top religious official in Turkey

* The 57-nation Organisation of the Islamic Conference also said it regretted the Pope's remarks

Violence and faith

The controversy comes on an important day for the Vatican, with Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, former Archbishop of Genoa, taking over as secretary of state.

Correspondents say Pope Benedict, who has been closeted with his chief advisers at his summer residence near Rome, is upset at the way in which his remarks have been interpreted.

But there is no sense of panic at the Vatican, he says, and preparation for the Pope's forthcoming visit to Turkey, a predominantly Muslim secular nation, next November, are going ahead as planned.

In his speech at Regensburg University, the German-born Pope explored the historical and philosophical differences between Islam and Christianity, and the relationship between violence and faith.

Stressing that they were not his own words, he quoted Emperor Manuel II Paleologos of the Byzantine Empire, the Orthodox Christian empire which had its capital in what is now the Turkish city of Istanbul.

The emperor's words were, he said: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

Benedict said "I quote" twice to stress the words were not his and added that violence was "incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul".

"The intention here is not one of retrenchment or negative criticism, but of broadening our concept of reason and its application," he added in the concluding part of his speech.

"Only thus do we become capable of that genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today."


And I thought people here were touchy about religion, fuck, Jeebus, he was trying to prove a point about conversion at the end of a sword. He was not providing a commentary on the nature of Islam.

I never thought I'd see the day where I'd defend the Pope's right to cite historical documents. But this is retarded.

[edit] The mad librarian strikes again! [/edit] Smile
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Last edited by kame on Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MsFrisby



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

m-w wrote:
Main Entry: 1site
Pronunciation: 'sIt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, place, position, from Anglo-French or Latin; Anglo-French sit, site, from Latin situs, from sinere to leave, allow
1 a : the spatial location of an actual or planned structure or set of structures (as a building, town, or monuments) b : a space of ground occupied or to be occupied by a building
2 a : the place, scene, or point of an occurrence or event <a> <the> b : one or more Internet addresses at which an individual or organization provides information to others <an>; esp : WEB SITE


m-w wrote:
Main Entry: cite
Pronunciation: 'sIt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): cit·ed; cit·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French citer to cite, summon, from Latin citare to put in motion, rouse, summon, from frequentative of ciEre to stir, move -- more at -KINESIS
1 : to call upon officially or authoritatively to appear (as before a court)
2 : to quote by way of example, authority, or proof <cites>
3 a : to refer to; especially : to mention formally in commendation or praise b : to name in a citation
4 : to bring forward or call to another's attention especially as an example, proof, or precedent <cited>


Sorry, but that's one of those things that bothers me. Anyway... um... I think that the comment was actually inflammatory. How would you like it if someone said something about your founder of religion to the effect of "Nothing this guy has ever done differently has been anything but evil."
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that was kinda my take on it - maybe the pope didn't mean it that way, but it wasn't exactly the most tactful thing to cite.

(and i also agree on the cite/site thing - especially when confounded by sight)
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trustedfaith



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please tell me what the point of that was? Why would you bring up some inflammatory quote of some old Christian emperor from years and years ago that was hurtful to a religion in which YOU KNOW from ACTUAL PROOF (e.g. Danish cartoons) is VERY sensitive to what is said about it?

Ok that was a really long sentence. Sorry...

But seriously, Muslims are very sensitive about their religion and while I understand talking and discussing the topic of holy wars, I don't hear any mention of any inflammatory remark to any other religion that the Pope quoted. Why's that? If it wasn't meant to offend, surely he can agree that Islam is not the only religion that has succumbed to violence in extremism.
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Amilam



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we should withhold judgement until we can see the speech in its proper context. Can anyone provide a link to a transcript of the text?
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Sam



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:53 pm    Post subject: MORONI SMASH Reply with quote

Quote:
How would you like it if someone said something about your founder of religion to the effect of "Nothing this guy has ever done differently has been anything but evil."


I'll go chat up a mormon with that particular line of reasoning, see how well they take it.
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kame



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amilam wrote:
I think we should withhold judgement until we can see the speech in its proper context. Can anyone provide a link to a transcript of the text?


Sure
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:00 pm    Post subject: Re: MORONI SMASH Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Quote:
How would you like it if someone said something about your founder of religion to the effect of "Nothing this guy has ever done differently has been anything but evil."


I'll go chat up a mormon with that particular line of reasoning, see how well they take it.

TRY SCIENTOLOGIST LOL
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MsFrisby



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep. My point exactly. No one is going to take kindly to such a remark. To be all disingenuous after making one is just ridiculous.
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Secret



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Whoops, I made a fuck-up."

"But you're not allowed to make a fuck-up! You're the Pope!"

"Okay! No fuck-ups were made! I meant it differently, really! I swear!"
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Marik



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:49 pm    Post subject: inFLAMbatory Reply with quote

I, THE POPE, DID NOT WISH TO OFFEND THE THOROUGHLY FOOLED MASSES OF YOUR COMPLETELY BOGUS RELIGION

C U NEXT CRUSADES


love,

Catholicism
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Sojobo



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MsFrisby wrote:
Sorry, but that's one of those things that bothers me. Anyway... um... I think that the comment was actually inflammatory. How would you like it if someone said something about your founder of religion to the effect of "Nothing this guy has ever done differently has been anything but evil."

trustedfaith wrote:
Please tell me what the point of that was? Why would you bring up some inflammatory quote of some old Christian emperor from years and years ago that was hurtful to a religion in which YOU KNOW from ACTUAL PROOF (e.g. Danish cartoons) is VERY sensitive to what is said about it?

MsFrisby wrote:
Yep. My point exactly. No one is going to take kindly to such a remark. To be all disingenuous after making one is just ridiculous.

Secret wrote:
"Whoops, I made a fuck-up."

"But you're not allowed to make a fuck-up! You're the Pope!"

"Okay! No fuck-ups were made! I meant it differently, really! I swear!"

Marik wrote:
I, THE POPE, DID NOT WISH TO OFFEND THE THOROUGHLY FOOLED MASSES OF YOUR COMPLETELY BOGUS RELIGION

C U NEXT CRUSADES

love,

Catholicism

Read kame's link. There is no describing how far out of context this is getting taken. Perhaps next time you should judge after you have at least some slight amount of information about the situation?
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Agamemnon



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah. My favorite part is where the Pope is being called "Hitler" Confused
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Sojobo



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trustedfaith wrote:
Please tell me what the point of that was? Why would you bring up some inflammatory quote of some old Christian emperor from years and years ago that was hurtful to a religion in which YOU KNOW from ACTUAL PROOF (e.g. Danish cartoons) is VERY sensitive to what is said about it?

Ok that was a really long sentence. Sorry...

But seriously, Muslims are very sensitive about their religion and while I understand talking and discussing the topic of holy wars, I don't hear any mention of any inflammatory remark to any other religion that the Pope quoted. Why's that? If it wasn't meant to offend, surely he can agree that Islam is not the only religion that has succumbed to violence in extremism.

I was perhaps too harsh including you with the others. You at least asked where the comment came from.

The Pope's speech was very roughly about whether Reason is a valuable part of Theology, and to some degree whether Theology is a valuable source of knowledge for Philosophy.

Specifically, he accepts as obvious that Christianity was deeply influenced by the Greek philosophers surrounding its formation, and discusses movements to dehellanize Christianity, by which he means removing all reason from our understanding of God.

The example he uses to distinguish between the "Hellenist" view of God and a purely transcendent (uncategorizable in any rational way) God was drawn from a certain book edited by Theodore Khoury, which he quotes several times.

This example involved Manuel II Paleologus' view: "Not to act reasonably, not to act with logos, is contrary to the nature of God." and that of Ibn Hazn, a Muslim philosopher/theologian, who stated that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us." (by way of R. Arnaldez).

The core of this example was another quotation from Manuel II: "Faith is born of the soul, not the body. whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death..."

This quotation was the conclusion of a conversation between Manuel II and a "Persian interlocutor" during the siege of Constantinople. The quotation that has so many people angry was simply the beginning of that conversation.

That was the point. That's why no other religions were mentioned. Neither Holy Wars nor Islam were the Pope's topic, but simply the topic of the man he was quoting as an example.
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Marik



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:25 am    Post subject: that's how you offend Reply with quote

Quote:
Perhaps next time you should judge after you have at least some slight amount of information about the situation?



?


Quote:
A transcript of the pope's remarks obtained by The Associated Press television network reads: "In the seventh (sura, or chapter of the Quran), the emperor comes to speak about jihad, holy war.

"The emperor certainly knew that Sura 2, 256, reads: 'No force in matters of faith'. It is one of the early suras, from a time -- as experts say -- in which Mohammed himself was still powerless and threatened.

"However, the emperor of course also knew the requirements about the holy war that were later formulated in the Quran. Without going into details like the handling of the owners of the scriptures, or non-believers, he (the emperor) turned to his interlocutors -- in a surprisingly brusque way -- with the central question after the relationship between religion and violence.

"He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'"

The Organization of the Islamic Conference, in a statement released Thursday, said it "regrets the quotations cited by the pope on the Life of the Honorable Prophet Mohammed, and what he referred to as 'spreading' Islam 'by the sword.'"

"The attribution of the spread of Islam around the world to the shedding of blood and violence, which is 'incompatible with the nature of God' is a complete distortion of the facts, which shows deep ignorance of Islam and Islamic history."


They did not mean to offend, but boy howdy!
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