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Pope quotes 14th Century Christian Emperor, hilarity ensues
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Thy Brilliance



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Teh Digital Dragon wrote:
Whose belief is that meant to be? Turkey's? Islam's in general? Because, while I've heard the holocaust-denial shit in the news about Iran I've personally never met a muslim who was anti-semitic, and as I understand it Turkey doesn't hold Holocaust denial as official foreign policy.

First of all, it would be completely stupid and out of line for me to accuse Islam in general of Holocaust denial. Secondly, Turkey's official policy is not one of denial, however like many Middle Eastern countries there is a growing movement by Holocaust Deniers to popularize their filth in the country, including by Turkish Creationists, one of whom wrote a very popular denialist book. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is "mostly seen as an authentic document" there, as it is in much of the Middle East unfortunately, and along with The International Jew are national bestsellers due in part to the efforts of anti-semitic/anti-Israeli, nationalist, and Islamist groups (finally found out the precise meaning of that word). Despite the growing popularity of the idea, though, Turkey at least has set up a Holocaust Memorial Day. So maybe you see me as off-base, I just thought the Hitler comparison was a particularly ironic one in one of the countries plagued by fundamentalist-motivated antisemitism. Last I heard Turkey was still under the antisecular, Islamist AKP party majority, which also has tinges of antisemitism. Ever since the AKP rose to power, it seems the near monopolous media organizations (most of which have a strong Nationalist bent) have also been progressing in a more antisemitic direction with wild accusations of Jews being responsible for the downfall of the Ottoman empire, and even the Armenian "genocide."


What, first they try to deny that the Armenian Genocide ever existed, and now they try to shift the blame in the most ridiculous direction ever?
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Him



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:
WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Teh Digital Dragon wrote:
Whose belief is that meant to be? Turkey's? Islam's in general? Because, while I've heard the holocaust-denial shit in the news about Iran I've personally never met a muslim who was anti-semitic, and as I understand it Turkey doesn't hold Holocaust denial as official foreign policy.

First of all, it would be completely stupid and out of line for me to accuse Islam in general of Holocaust denial. Secondly, Turkey's official policy is not one of denial, however like many Middle Eastern countries there is a growing movement by Holocaust Deniers to popularize their filth in the country, including by Turkish Creationists, one of whom wrote a very popular denialist book. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is "mostly seen as an authentic document" there, as it is in much of the Middle East unfortunately, and along with The International Jew are national bestsellers due in part to the efforts of anti-semitic/anti-Israeli, nationalist, and Islamist groups (finally found out the precise meaning of that word). Despite the growing popularity of the idea, though, Turkey at least has set up a Holocaust Memorial Day. So maybe you see me as off-base, I just thought the Hitler comparison was a particularly ironic one in one of the countries plagued by fundamentalist-motivated antisemitism. Last I heard Turkey was still under the antisecular, Islamist AKP party majority, which also has tinges of antisemitism. Ever since the AKP rose to power, it seems the near monopolous media organizations (most of which have a strong Nationalist bent) have also been progressing in a more antisemitic direction with wild accusations of Jews being responsible for the downfall of the Ottoman empire, and even the Armenian "genocide."


What, first they try to deny that the Armenian Genocide ever existed, and now they try to shift the blame in the most ridiculous direction ever?
It's always the jewish bolshevic conspiracy. Always. My bus to school was late this morning. Why? Jewish-bolshevik conspiracy had to tap teh entire buss with hidden cameras before they let it out. The vegeterian alternative was dreadull alst friday. Why? the jewish-bolshevic conspiracy had to have something good to eat for there lunchbreak so they exchanged the original good-tasting vegeterian somethings with the dreadfull ones. The list goes on.
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dazedb42



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atlast a call to Jihad.



Quote:
Today an internet statement by the Mujahideen Shura Council, an umbrella group led by Iraqís branch of al Qa'ida, threatened reprisals against "worshippers of the cross" for the Pope's remarks.

"We shall break the cross and spill the wine. ... (you will have no choice but) Islam or death," said the statement, citing a hadith (saying of the Prophet Mohammed) promising Muslims that they would "conquer Rome... as they conquered Constantinople".

"We tell the worshipper of the cross (the Pope) that you and the West will be defeated, as is the case in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya. God enable us to slit their throats, and make their money and descendants the bounty of the Mujahideen."

As usual with such statements, the authenticity could not be verified. It was posted on an internet site often used by al-Qa'ida and other militant groups. It continued: "The Pope in the Vatican turns in the orbit of Bush. His remarks form part of the mobilisation for a crusade announced by Bush, to raise the morale of the crusader armies."

Two other armed groups in Iraq, Jaish al-Mujahedeen (the Mujahedeenís Army) and Asaeb al-Iraq al-Jihadiya (League of Jihadists in Iraq), have already threatened the Vatican with reprisals in statements posted on Islamist internet websites.

Another militant group in Iraq, Ansar al-Sunnah, today also vowed to fight Christians in retaliation.

"You will only see our swords until you go back to Godís true faith Islam," it said in a separate statement, which called the Pope "Satanís hellhound in the Vatican", saying he was "proud today of his hatred towards Muslims".

"The day is coming when the armies of Islam will destroy the ramparts of Rome," it added in the statement addressed to "Crusaders".

The Pope's use of an obscure medieval quotation, without making it clear that he did not agreed with its contents, has outraged Muslims and triggered protests and even attacks on churches in several Arab towns.

Ali Khamenei, Iranís supreme leader, said today that the pontiff's remarks were the latest "links in the chain" of a US-Israeli conspiracy aimed at creating conflict between religions.


also the Archbishop of Sydney fuels the flame.


Quote:
SYDNEY'S Catholic Archbishop has hit out at Muslims protesting over comments by the Pope, saying their reaction shows the link in Islam between religion and violence.

Cardinal George Pell has also labelled the response of some Australian Muslim leaders to the issue as "unhelpful".

A wave of protest has erupted among Muslims across the globe after comments by Pope Benedict XVI, in which he quoted an obscure medieval text that criticised some teachings of the Prophet Mohammed as "evil and inhuman".

The Pope has since said he is "deeply sorry" for the outrage sparked by his remarks and stressed they do not reflect his personal opinion.

But Cardinal Pell today backed Pope Benedict, saying the violent reaction to his comments on Islam and violence illustrated his fears.

"The violent reactions in many parts of the Islamic world justified one of Pope Benedict's main fears," Cardinal Pell said in a statement.

"They showed the link for many Islamists between religion and violence, their refusal to respond to criticism with rational arguments, but only with demonstrations, threats and actual violence.

"Our major priority must be to maintain peace and harmony within the Australian community, but no lasting achievements can be grounded in fantasies and evasions."

Dr Pell said it was a "sign of hope" that no organised violence had flared in Australia following Pope Benedict's comments.

But he said the responses of Australia's mufti, Sheik Taj Aldin Alhilali, and of Dr Ameer Ali, of the prime minister's Muslim reference group, were "unfortunately typical and unhelpful".

"It is always someone else's fault and issues touching on the nature of Islam are ignored.

"Sheik Alhilali often responds to criticism by questioning the intelligence and competence of the questioner or critic," Dr Pell said.

Later, on ABC Radio, he added of Sheik Alhilali: "I'm tempted to say almost never does he address the criticism of Islam but diverts the question away from it and I think resorts to evasions."

Dr Ali said yesterday Muslims in Australia were disappointed by the Pope's comments.

"We expect the Pope to follow (in) the footsteps of his predecessor who had been a great builder among communities for the last so many years and not a pope of the crusades," Dr Ali said.

Dr Pell said Dr Ali had called on Pope Benedict to be more like Pope John Paul II than Pope Urban II, who called the First Crusade.

"In fact the Pope's long speech was more about the weaknesses of the Western world, its irreligion and disdain for religion and he explicitly rejected linking religion and violence," Dr Pell said.

"He won't be calling any crusade."

Dr Pell sought to draw a distinction between Westerners and Muslims.

"Today Westerners often link genuine religious expression with peace and tolerance.

"Today most Muslims identify genuine religion with submission (Islam) to the commands of the Koran.

"They are proud of the spectacular military expansion across continents, especially in the decades after the Prophet's death. This is seen as a sign of God's blessing."

Dr Pell said while he was grateful for the contributions of moderate Muslims, "evil acts done falsely in the name of Islam around the world need to be addressed, not swept under the carpet".

Dr Pell has repeatedly said Islam is more warlike than Christianity.

In June this year he told the National Catholic Reporter in the United States: "It's difficult to find periods of tolerance in Islam."


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trustedfaith



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was having a discussion with my brother and father about this, oddly enough, a few days ago. It just seems that while the rest of the world and its religions seem to be somewhat in the here and now, Islam is light years behind and still lives in a day and age that the rest of the world has moved past to change and mold into what we call "today".

Everyone is to blame here. If the Muslims had reacted in peaceful protests and didn't add violence to the mix, it would have shown the world they are able to handle situations like this. Reading all the twisting of words and calls for forcing people to switch to Islam or die seems a bit exactly like the quote. Are they trying to show us the quote was correct?

Regardless of what the Pope originally meant, his apology that didn't say "I'm sorry I said that" could mean Christians across the board are now targets. Does he want to be in the right and allow his followers to be targets or does he want to keep the peace and not have people die for words that weren't carefully chosen?

I'm rambling here, don't mind me.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I LOL'd at the opening irony of the article dazed posted:

Quote:
AN Iraqi militant group led by al-Qa'ida has threatened to massacre Christians in response to remarks about Islam by Pope Benedict XVI that have caused offence across the Muslim world.

The Pope quoted a 14th Century Byzantine emperor who criticised the teachings of Mohammad for endorsing the use of violence, in a speech to an academic audience at a German university last Tuesday.


I laugh, because I can't cry. I'll really laugh if this speech is looked back upon by history as the final impetus that resulted in WWIII. Stupid Germans.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
I LOL'd at the opening irony of the article dazed posted:

Quote:
AN Iraqi militant group led by al-Qa'ida has threatened to massacre Christians in response to remarks about Islam by Pope Benedict XVI that have caused offence across the Muslim world.

The Pope quoted a 14th Century Byzantine emperor who criticised the teachings of Mohammad for endorsing the use of violence, in a speech to an academic audience at a German university last Tuesday.


I laugh, because I can't cry. I'll really laugh if this speech is looked back upon by history as the final impetus that resulted in WWIII. Stupid Germans.


in other words, a bunch of wackos who have been calling for the destruction of the west and the rule of islam have used this as an opportunity to ....call for the destruction of the west and the rule of islam.

you all keep acting like every single muslim on the planet is calling for the violence to bring everyone to allah. one shouldn't try to make a case from a single observation, but i work with an observent muslim, and he has never once held a sword to my throat and threatened me with death if i didn't convert.

i'm just saying.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey not me, I'm not the one that wrote the article, I just made an observation. I realize the point you're making, but you have to admit such a reaction by muslim extremists could (and this is the scary part) and will be perceived by some as reinforcing the idea of "the teachings of Mohammad for endorsing the use of violence".

I can only see the imaginary conversation all too clearly:

Hick: Did'ja here 'bout them towelheads declaring war 'gainst the pope?
Redneck: Hell yeah! Guess he was right bout Mo-ha-meed teaching 'em all to be violent and shit.


Sad
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, not every muslim. There are an astonishing number of them, though.

CNN wrote:
ANKARA, Turkey (Reuters) -- Employees of the state body that organizes Muslim worship in Turkey asked the authorities on Tuesday to open legal proceedings against Pope Benedict XVI and to arrest him when he visits the country in November.

Muslims worldwide have been angered by remarks the pope made in a lecture last week that they said portrayed Islam as a religion tainted by violence and irrationality.

Benedict has said he is deeply sorry Muslims have been offended by his use of a medieval quotation on Islam and holy war but has stopped short of retracting his comments.

Employees of Ankara's Directorate General for Religious Affairs, or Diyanet, presented a petition to the Justice Ministry asking it to launch a probe into the pope's remarks and to detain him when he arrives, the Anatolian news agency said.

They said the pontiff had violated Turkish laws upholding freedom of belief and thought by "insulting" Islam and the Prophet Mohammed.

The protesters held banners that read "Either apologize or don't come."

It is not uncommon for individuals or organizations in Turkey to seek legal action against world leaders whose actions they disapprove of. They have never succeeded.

Benedict is due to pay an official visit to Turkey on November 28-30, his first to a Muslim country since he became pope.

Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan has described the pope's comments on Islam as "ugly," but the government has said it still expects the visit to go ahead on schedule.

The Diyanet controls all imams in Turkey, writes their Friday sermons and sends prayer leaders to Turkish communities abroad.

Ali Bardakoglu, head of the Diyanet, has criticized the pope's remarks but has also welcomed his subsequent apology.

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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you can violate turkish law while speaking in germany?
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
They said the pontiff had violated Turkish laws upholding freedom of belief and thought by "insulting" Islam and the Prophet Mohammed.

So he should be arrested for being seen as having thoughts that offend people on account of Turkey's laws protecting freedom of thought.
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kame



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd respect the protesters complaints, if they made any sense, as it stands, I want to send them all this:


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dazedb42



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major Tom wrote:
you can violate turkish law while speaking in germany?


Is it the germans or the austrians who want to arrest the Ayatollah for denying the holocaust? I forget, but same shit different bat channel.
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Marik



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:13 am    Post subject: I WISH I WAS AN OSSKER MEYER ALLAH Reply with quote

damn you western civilization and your subversive messages
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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dazedb42 wrote:
Major Tom wrote:
you can violate turkish law while speaking in germany?


Is it the germans or the austrians who want to arrest the Ayatollah for denying the holocaust? I forget, but same shit different bat channel.


is that international law, or did the denial occur 'in-country'?

which ayatollah?
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dazedb42



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My bad. It was the President. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. They wanted to arrest him for denying the holocaust, but they to get him to deny it on German soil before they could. Had a dinner party last night so memories are a bit skew if today.
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