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Fahrenheit 451, anyone?
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Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10698

PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major Tom wrote:
i think true intelligence exceeds the bounds of reason and relies on instinct...innate or learned.

(mad, i swear i'm going to get back to that)


Major Tom wrote:
i think true intelligence exceeds the bounds of reason and relies on instinct...innate or learned.

(mad, i swear i'm going to get back to that)


Major Tom wrote:
i think true intelligence exceeds the bounds of reason and relies on instinct...innate or learned.

(mad, i swear i'm going to get back to that)


Major Tom wrote:
i think true intelligence exceeds the bounds of reason and relies on instinct...innate or learned.

(mad, i swear i'm going to get back to that)


Major Tom wrote:
i think true intelligence exceeds the bounds of reason and relies on instinct...innate or learned.

(mad, i swear i'm going to get back to that)


Major Tom wrote:
i think true intelligence exceeds the bounds of reason and relies on instinct...innate or learned.

(mad, i swear i'm going to get back to that)
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AfyonBlade



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So could you make a correlation that being able to decipher complex text is being able to make the logical jumps(genius?) to a more simplified textual layout, and thus are able to understand it? And also being able to make the correlations between points the auhtor makes, and knowing the reason behind those links?

I mean, whenever you do something you usually bring it to the simplest, most understandable form. I translate Shakespeare to common vernacular, and it makes sense to me. If I try to just think of the original vernacular, it's pretty daunting because of how odd the words are to me.
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Desire



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So understanding without going through the processes would be innate or instinctual?


Someone who could do algebraic equations and reliably get the correct answers but could not show the work process they used to get them would be using innate or instinctual intelligence?

How about someone who could look at a complex diagram and understand how it would function/work as a whole even if they didn't understand how the individual parts work?

You guys need to elaborate a bit on this/these ideas (innate/instict knowledge).






Complex sentences aren't difficult to decipher. It's all down to the sentence structure. Sentences can be diagramed and broken down easily enough.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major Tom wrote:
genius is often described as a moment in which a 'leap of logic' occurs.

rather than 'thinking rationally but really, really fast' this actually is meant to suggest leaping over the rational steps...leaving the logical plane, as it were, and landing at a sound conclusion that will, nevertheless, then be tested and proven...eventually. (see ferme)

thus, in extention, "intelligence", of which "genius" is a perceived extreme, exceeds the bounds of reason.


yes, but how much does one's ability to make such a leap depend on the extent of one's knowledge of the field in question? is it really a leap - or the result of subconscious reasoning, or long trains of bits and pieces of thought?

i would suspect someone like fermi, with considerable training and experience in physics, would be much more likely to make a tremendous leap than someone like me, whose experience in physics is limited to required coursework some years ago.

and that is has nothing to do with our relative abilities to leap logic.

i mean, _i_ make logical leaps all the time, and do _i_ get credit for brilliant insights?
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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if logical leaps are determinant expressly on an amount of accumulated information, why doesn't everyone with a sufficient level of understanding of whatever field of endeavor acheive genius?
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, it's true that different people are more or less willing to step out of the defined boundaries (which is what such a leap is). that might be innate, or a result of upbringing, or whatever. i guess my feeling is there has to be some learned basis from which to make the leap - no basis, no leap (even for potential geniuses - genii?)
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must be the brilliant one. I make lots of leaps. Actually, I don't think there is such a thing as a leap. It is a bunch of small steps taken very quickly so it seems like a jump.

Anyhow, I found an article that explained the whole thing better.


An Excerpt from the Washington Post wrote:
"The declining impact of education on our adult population was the biggest surprise for us, and we just don't have a good explanation," said Mark S. Schneider, commissioner of education statistics. "It may be that institutions have not yet figured out how to teach a whole generation of students who learned to read on the computer and who watch more TV. It's a different kind of literacy."

"What's disturbing is that the assessment is not designed to test your understanding of Proust, but to test your ability to read labels," he added.

The test measures how well adults comprehend basic instructions and tasks through reading -- such as computing costs per ounce of food items, comparing viewpoints on two editorials and reading prescription labels. Only 41 percent of graduate students tested in 2003 could be classified as "proficient" in prose -- reading and understanding information in short texts -- down 10 percentage points since 1992. Of college graduates, only 31 percent were classified as proficient -- compared with 40 percent in 1992. Schneider said the results do not separate recent graduates from those who have been out of school several years or more.


Hey look, I found the actual report as well as some sample questions.

::looks them over::

Nope, not good at all. ::scowls::

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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm reposting the whole article since they do not to leave content on their site for too long.

washington post wrote:
Literacy of College Graduates Is on Decline
Survey's Finding of a Drop in Reading Proficiency Is Inexplicable, Experts Say

By Lois Romano
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, December 25, 2005; Page A12

Literacy experts and educators say they are stunned by the results of a recent adult literacy assessment, which shows that the reading proficiency of college graduates has declined in the past decade, with no obvious explanation.

"It's appalling -- it's really astounding," said Michael Gorman, president of the American Library Association and a librarian at California State University at Fresno. "Only 31 percent of college graduates can read a complex book and extrapolate from it. That's not saying much for the remainder."

While more Americans are graduating from college, and more than ever are applying for admission, far fewer are leaving higher education with the skills needed to comprehend routine data, such as reading a table about the relationship between blood pressure and physical activity, according to the federal study conducted by the National Center for Education Statistics.

Experts could not definitively explain the drop.

"The declining impact of education on our adult population was the biggest surprise for us, and we just don't have a good explanation," said Mark S. Schneider, commissioner of education statistics. "It may be that institutions have not yet figured out how to teach a whole generation of students who learned to read on the computer and who watch more TV. It's a different kind of literacy."

"What's disturbing is that the assessment is not designed to test your understanding of Proust, but to test your ability to read labels," he added.

The test measures how well adults comprehend basic instructions and tasks through reading -- such as computing costs per ounce of food items, comparing viewpoints on two editorials and reading prescription labels. Only 41 percent of graduate students tested in 2003 could be classified as "proficient" in prose -- reading and understanding information in short texts -- down 10 percentage points since 1992. Of college graduates, only 31 percent were classified as proficient -- compared with 40 percent in 1992. Schneider said the results do not separate recent graduates from those who have been out of school several years or more.

The results were based on a sample of more than 19,000 people 16 or older, who were interviewed in their homes. They were asked to read prose, do math and find facts in documents. The scores for "intermediate" reading abilities went up for college students, causing educators to question whether most college instruction is offered at the intermediate level because students face reading challenges.

Gorman said that he has been shocked by how few entering freshmen understand how to use a basic library system, or enjoy reading for pleasure. "There is a failure in the core values of education," he said. "They're told to go to college in order to get a better job -- and that's okay. But the real task is to produce educated people."

Other experts noted that the slip in scores could be attributed to most state schools not being particularly selective, accepting most high school graduates to bolster enrollment. In addition, Schneider said schools may not be taking into account a more diverse population, and the language and cultural barriers that come with shifting demographics.

That would account for the dramatic drop in average prose literacy for Hispanics, which slipped by 18 percentage points, he said. "The Hispanic scores were somewhat understandable based on the changing demographics," Schneider said. "Diversity may lead to more difficulties in education."

Dolores Perin, a reading expert at Columbia University Teachers College, said that her work has indicated that the issue may start at the high school level. "There is a tremendous literacy problem among high school graduates that is not talked about," said Perin, who has been sitting in on high school classes as part of a teaching project. "It's a little bit depressing. The colleges are left holding the bag, trying to teach students who have challenges."

On average, adult literacy is virtually unchanged since 1992, with 30 million people struggling with basic reading tasks. While adults made some progress in quantitative literacy, such as the ability to calculate taxes, the study showed that from 1992 to 2003 adults made no improvement in their ability read newspapers or books, or comprehend basic forms.

One bright spot is that blacks are making significant gains in reading and math and are reaching higher levels of education. For instance, the report showed that the average rate of prose literacy, or reading, among blacks rose six percentage points since 1992. Prose and document reading scores for whites remained the same.

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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So...I'm confused by the end of the article. Is it the drop in hispanics' scores and their increased presence the cause or what, at least with reagards to prose. I mean, if scores stayed the same for whites and increased for blacks, then wouldn't the 18% drop in hispanics scores be the main factor? It almost is seeming now that this isn't as critical an issue as I first thought.

The later part of the article seems to be based upon a more in-depth analysis of the numbers.
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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:30 pm    Post subject: a possible explanation Reply with quote

Audit Finds Education Department Missteps

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: September 22, 2006
Filed at 5:07 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A scorching internal review of the Bush administration's reading program says the Education Department ignored the law and ethical standards to steer money how it wanted.

The government audit is unsparing in its review of how Reading First, a billion-dollar program each year, that it says has been beset by conflicts of interest and willful mismanagement. It suggests the department broke the law by trying to dictate which curriculum schools must use.

It also depicts a program in which review panels were stacked with people who shared the director's views and in which only favored publishers of reading curricula could get money.

In one e-mail, the director told a staff member to come down hard on a company he didn't support, according to the report released Friday by the department's inspector general.

''They are trying to crash our party and we need to beat the (expletive deleted) out of them in front of all the other would-be party crashers who are standing on the front lawn waiting to see how we welcome these dirtbags,'' the Reading First director wrote, according to the report.

That official, Chris Doherty, is resigning in the coming days, department spokeswoman Katherine McLane said Friday. Asked if his quitting was in response to the report, she said only that Doherty is returning to the private sector after five years at the agency.

Education Secretary Margaret Spellings, in a statement, pledged to swiftly adopt all of the audit's recommendations. She also pledged a review of every Reading First grant.

''I am concerned about these actions and committed to addressing and resolving them,'' she said.

Reading First aims to help young children read through scientifically-proven programs, and the department considers it a jewel of No Child Left Behind, Bush's education law. Just this week, a separate review found that the effort is helping schools raise achievement.

But from the start, the program has also been dogged by accusations of impropriety, leading to several ongoing audits. The new report from the Office of Inspector General -- an independent arm of the Education Department -- calls into question basic matters of credibility.

When the department fails to follow the law and its own guidance, the report says, ''it can only serve to undermine the public's confidence in the department.''

The ranking Democrat on the House education committee was furious.

''They should fire everyone who was involved in this,'' said Rep. George Miller, D-Calif. ''This was not an accident, this was not an oversight. This was an intentional effort to corrupt the process.''

About 1,500 school districts have received $4.8 billion in Reading First grants.
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rm



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major Tom wrote:
if logical leaps are determinant expressly on an amount of accumulated information, why doesn't everyone with a sufficient level of understanding of whatever field of endeavor acheive genius?


something else is definitely required, though I still wouldn't call it a subset of instinct... but I am willing concede that the various mental elements involved in instinctive behavior appear quite similar to those involved in genius level leap of logic behavior, insofar as they are not apparent at all. doesn't mean they are one and the same, though. perhaps the two functions are dual extremes of a shared quality... but what is that quality? I would start to define it by saying that it transcends consciousness. only in retrospect can the process be explained.
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Some Guy!



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:
Hey look, I found the actual report as well as some sample questions.


Bless you.
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AfyonBlade



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:
Nope, not good at all. ::scowls::


I second the scowling. I don't see how not being able to do quick arithmetic in your head, or some spatial reasoning, or things like that, can make a person 'illiterate.' I'm better at deducing word problems than most people I know, yet I still have some trouble catching the deep meanings of things right off the bat when reading poetry or other texts.

I make ' leaps' and 'jumps' as well, but sometimes there's a very loooong wait between them. Rabbit or the hare?
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