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Smoke on the water (Israel forces board ships)
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Willem



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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No I'm saying that if you know ahead of time your actions will more than likely result in violence you bear some measure of responsibility for that violence occuring, especially if it has happened before and as a result you have a strong reason to believe violence will occur.

I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. I honestly can't explain it any better than I already have without resorting to more analogies and metaphors. I'm desperately trying to avoid throwing out the 'girl with a short skirt in a dark alley' reply. You really should rethink that position.

Quote:
And lets just say that the illegality of the blockade by international law isn't exactly uncontested fact shaky legal ground maybe, but strictly illegal..no

That article does a good job explaining the arguments used by Israel to justify the blockade, but there are some major holes in that explanation.

The most important thing to note is that the treaties Israel invokes only apply in case of an international armed conflict. This means that the conflict must be between two states. So Gaza would have to be an independent state and Hamas its official ruling body for the blockade to be legal. Obviously, Israel refuses to recognise Gaza as an independent state, because that would trigger a slew of laws and treaties it'd have to adhere to. And while the Israeli Supreme Court said the conflict between an occupying force and a rebel group is international - this in itself is fairly controversial - Israel refuses to admit it is occupying Gaza, again to avoid certain treaties like the Fourth Geneva Convention.

So basically, Israel doesn't have a leg to stand on. Really, it makes more sense to look at the blockade as a form of collective punishment than anything else, especially when considering how strict it is and considering the shaky reasoning behind it.

Quote:
Seems they have been. Also seems the U.N. already kind of made a decision on it.

A very controversial and weakly justified decision, while many other UN-agencies have said the exact opposite. The UN isn't infallible and it can still change its mind.

Quote:
Well for starters, the flotilla actually needs to not be detained by other authorities before it even gets anywhere near gaza

Or be sabotaged in turkey

Or find themselves seized under accusations of being purchased with "terrorist funds"

Gosh look at all these flotilla ships that people talk about setting sail with but never actually manage to get out of port.

Man its almost like they can't even get out of port to get this flotilla rolling

These things only show us that the Flotilla may not succeed in breaking the blockade, not that they won't accomplish anything.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willem wrote:
Quote:
No I'm saying that if you know ahead of time your actions will more than likely result in violence you bear some measure of responsibility for that violence occuring, especially if it has happened before and as a result you have a strong reason to believe violence will occur.

I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. I honestly can't explain it any better than I already have without resorting to more analogies and metaphors. I'm desperately trying to avoid throwing out the 'girl with a short skirt in a dark alley' reply. You really should rethink that position.


Its good you didn't use that analogy because it's a bad one, first the girl in a short skirt walking down a dark alley has a reasonable expectation in public that they won't be attacked. This is somewhat different from attempting to run a military blockade which in and of itself is a highly dangerous thing to do. A better analogy would be the girl in a short skirt going to a party at the house of someone convicted of date rape, who she witnessed purchasing rohypnol, then drinking to excess and leaving her drink alone with that very person while exclaiming "IM SOOOOO DRUNK!!" over and over again. You don't KNOW what is waiting for you in a dark alley, the flotilla KNOWS that the israeli military is waiting to interdict ships and they know they've used excessive force in the past, in exactly the same way the girl in my analogy knows she is in a dangerous position, knows this guy has a date rape drug and knows he's committed the crime before. Does the girl in that analogy deserve to be raped? God no, but you do bear some responsibility for preserving your own well being and avoiding easily avoidable dangerous situations.

Quote:

Quote:
Seems they have been. Also seems the U.N. already kind of made a decision on it.

A very controversial and weakly justified decision, while many other UN-agencies have said the exact opposite. The UN isn't infallible and it can still change its mind.


I agree, controversial and weakly justified. Which isn't to say that a body like the U.N. should do better than that because now this decision is on record and providing a sheen of legitimacy.

I feel like I should clarify again, I don't believe this blockade is something that could ever be considered the right thing to do. I think it's an appalling matter. Literally the only dog I have in this fight is whether or not this flotilla will accomplish something productive, and I don't believe it will. I've bolded the whole point because people keep dropping the addendums ive posted in this thread when responding to it. I'm not claiming that things won't happen because of it. I'm claiming that I don't believe it is going to bring about much of anything in the way of positive change compared to the potential for further violence and suffering. I don't feel that the risk is anywhere near the potential reward. You have a schizophrenic U.N. alternating between claiming the blockade is legal and not, you have a powerful nation unconditionally supporting Israel because it's political suicide not to....the flotilla isn't likely to change any of that.

Beyond all that if the goal was actually to land in gaza and bring aid materials to the palestinians there, perhaps not trumpeting your intentions to the world and making a huge public spectacle of it might allow you to actually bypass the israeli navy and bring these needed materials to an oppressed people.
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Sam the Eagle



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Sam the Eagle wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
I'm sorry you feel angry, or that its attempting to elicit trollish replies when y'all are challenged to back up the things you say here sam2. Unfortunately I at least am able to provide historical backup to my reasoning that I don't believe flotilla2 electric boogaloo will accomplish anything but maybe get more people hurt.


Challenge accepted.

Please provide examples, and links when said examples aren't common knowledge to why we must all bow to your flawless reasoning. And if you want for me to backup my claims above with links, or threads in here, you just have to ask.

Ftr, I am not angry at you yet. But really, please stop trolling or try to goad us into emo replies. If you start behaving like Thy or Him, you'll be treated as such.


accomplishing something.


[/quote]

Pretty busy but a quick reply to point out I agreed with you on these points, as stated few pages back.

It's when you mention UN's uselesness or why "educating" mainstream US voter is the way to do things that I disagree.

That was the challenge I was talking about.

Quartet's meeting couldn't but conclude there was no way negotiation can proceed this time they didn't even bothered to issue a common statement (that should be on various online, think I read it in the Guardian).
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, here's why I believe the educating mainstream voters in the U.S. is a path to take. A significant portion of Israel's military might comes/came from the U.S. and a significant portion of why their government gets away with as much as it does comes from the States support in the U.N. I feel a major reason for this is because it IS political suicide for our elected leaders to show anything but full support for Israel.

Without pressure from their base, american politicians will continue to take that stance, and given the U.S.'s position in the U.N. no resolution of any real authority will be able to come out against Israels actions.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don't know how far you will get with educating the american public though. there is near-fanatic support for israel in two groups: american jews, and american fundamentalists who believe the prophecy in revelation that one sign of the end-times will be when all the jews return to israel. these are both very vocal groups who are unlikely to be swayed much by the logic of the situation (at least they haven't been in the past). groups, however small, who are willing to make a great big noisy fuss about something have an unfortunate ability to move the american political process. you would need to educate at least a segment of the rest of the population not just to few the situation more equitably, but to be willing to spend lots of money and make lots of fuss in opposition of the ultra-pro-israeli lobby - and be willing to continue that support even after the israel/palestine question was settled. because the pro-israeli groups are prepared to hate you long time, if you vote against them.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
i don't know how far you will get with educating the american public though. there is near-fanatic support for israel in two groups: american jews, and american fundamentalists who believe the prophecy in revelation that one sign of the end-times will be when all the jews return to israel. these are both very vocal groups who are unlikely to be swayed much by the logic of the situation (at least they haven't been in the past). groups, however small, who are willing to make a great big noisy fuss about something have an unfortunate ability to move the american political process. you would need to educate at least a segment of the rest of the population not just to few the situation more equitably, but to be willing to spend lots of money and make lots of fuss in opposition of the ultra-pro-israeli lobby - and be willing to continue that support even after the israel/palestine question was settled. because the pro-israeli groups are prepared to hate you long time, if you vote against them.


This is true, and it is an uphill battle however you view it, but doing so seems more likely to me to implement lasting change. The other option is as was mentioned earlier in the thread. Clamp down on provocations on both sides as best possible until the current crop of leaders age and die or become too old to sit in the halls of power and a generational shift in values occurs. Clearly work will have to occur inside Israel as well as palestine to try to mitigate the extremists on both sides. The cycle of provocation -->repression/oppression --->new provocation ----->More repression has to break somewhere and it seems that most of the effort has been directed at the top of the chain for as long as I can remember without much success. I simply feel that it's long past time more effort was made to build bridges between the little guys in the hopes of a peaceful future, rather than trying to take big dramatic steps and solve it in our lifetime. War breaks out easily, respect for people you view as enemies takes time.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Does the girl in that analogy deserve to be raped? God no, but you do bear some responsibility for preserving your own well being and avoiding easily avoidable dangerous situations.

And I disagree. If a woman runs around naked as the day she was born, drinks so much she can't even stand up and finally ends up unconscious in the darkest alley of the scummiest city in the world, she still shouldn't bear even the slightest bit of blame for getting raped. But let's not drown in this bottomless well of analogies, we probably won't end up agreeing anyway. You're right in saying we're getting sidetracked anyway.

Quote:
Beyond all that if the goal was actually to land in gaza and bring aid materials to the palestinians there, perhaps not trumpeting your intentions to the world and making a huge public spectacle of it might allow you to actually bypass the israeli navy and bring these needed materials to an oppressed people.

As I said, that's not their goal. They only have a few small ships and they're filled with activists, not humanitarian aid. They only carry a token amount of humanitarian aid. Their goal is to run/break the blockade, while drawing attention to the legality and morality of said blockade and the crimes of Israel itself.

Quote:
educating US voters

Next to the points mouse raised, you're acting like changing the public opinion of Americans is a simple task. I can assure you, it's not. Any attempt would have to deal not only with a strong conservative media, a Zionist lobby, the strongest military industrial complex in the world and a powerful religious network, but would also have to box up against narratives about Muslims, about terrorism, about violent and non-violent resistance, about extremism and centrism and so on. And even once you manage to convince a suitably large group of voters that shit has got to change, then you've still got to get through to the political class. And then you run into the problems with American democracy.

And every step you take is an uphill battle. And at any time, anything can happen to Fuck Shit Up. Another terrorist attack, a charismatic Republican Muslim-hatin' president, Iran doing Something, anything like that can destroy years of hard work in an instant. As I said, I think it should be tried, but it alone cannot possibly solve this conflict. Other methods have to be used as well.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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This is true, and it is an uphill battle however you view it, but doing so seems more likely to me to implement lasting change. The other option is as was mentioned earlier in the thread. Clamp down on provocations on both sides as best possible until the current crop of leaders age and die or become too old to sit in the halls of power and a generational shift in values occurs. Clearly work will have to occur inside Israel as well as palestine to try to mitigate the extremists on both sides. The cycle of provocation -->repression/oppression --->new provocation ----->More repression has to break somewhere and it seems that most of the effort has been directed at the top of the chain for as long as I can remember without much success. I simply feel that it's long past time more effort was made to build bridges between the little guys in the hopes of a peaceful future, rather than trying to take big dramatic steps and solve it in our lifetime.

But this again runs into the HUGE issue that Israel just doesn't want peace and it has a long history of inciting violence to be able to respond with force of their own.

And the notion that the leaders of the future will be more willing to talk peace than the ones of the present, just doesn't conform with reality unfortunately.

Quote:
War breaks out easily, respect for people you view as enemies takes time.

But how can a wound heal if you don't pull out the knife first?
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willem wrote:

But this again runs into the HUGE issue that Israel just doesn't want peace and it has a long history of inciting violence to be able to respond with force of their own.

And the notion that the leaders of the future will be more willing to talk peace than the ones of the present, just doesn't conform with reality unfortunately.


If that's really the case then one or the other of these two sides is going to have to be completely broken before a lasting peace will be reached. I think that's a more unpleasant resolution and not one to be worked for.
Quote:

Quote:
War breaks out easily, respect for people you view as enemies takes time.

But how can a wound heal if you don't pull out the knife first?


How do you get people to pull the knife out when they don't want to and they're being supported in it by one of the more powerful and larger nations in the world and the other powerful and large nations tend to be lukewarm in any real effort to change the situation.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly. Something must be done. Something more than just educating the US public.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While its a difficult proposition, its a more SURE proposition than these grandiose gestures like the Flotilla. In the same way ignorance and hatred can spread like a disease, tolerance for each other and knowledge can be spread. It isn't going to be done by people like you, and me, and europeans, its going to have to happen by people getting to know palestinians and the palestinians and israelis to begin to get to know one another outside the epicenter of their conflict, and then bringing that experience back.

I refuse to believe that it is an impossible prospect because if you believe that, if you believe that actively going out directly to the masses and trying to change the masses minds about a subject is fruitless, then what you advocate is taking one of these two groups and breaking them until they can't fight anymore, because what it takes to actually shock the masses into action regarding foreign countries in this day and age is really really close to genocide. If the root cause isn't addressed its just going to crop up again like a blackberry bush you only cut off at ground level.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willem wrote:

But this again runs into the HUGE issue that Israel just doesn't want peace and it has a long history of inciting violence to be able to respond with force of their own.


i don't know that this is true, or fair (the part about israel just not wanting peace). israel wants security, and solid assurance that people no longer want to push them into the sea. (now that i think of it, that's primarily the sticking point with pro-israeli americans: they want to be sure that israel will continue to exist.) and on their side - much of their war history is with people who were trying to destroy them entirely, and there are still people on the palestinian side who deny israel's existence as a country. the current power structure in israel seems to believe that the only way they can guarantee their continued existence is to annex enough territory to make their borders completely defensible, and to crush any potential threat in that territory. unfortunately, they have failed to learn that this is not possible, and that repression just provokes more resistance.

so maybe some education of americans would help - but somehow we have to educate them that a) not all muslims are terrorists and 2) you can't end terrorism by terrorizing people.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey, it's not that I don't think educating the US public won't do any good, it's that it can't solve the problem on its own. It's not a difficult proposition, it's an impossible one, on its own. I think every method should be considered, so not just educating the public or negotiating, but also tactics like the Flotilla.

Quote:
the palestinians and israelis to begin to get to know one another outside the epicenter of their conflict, and then bringing that experience back.

Maybe the Palestinians and the Israelis need to meet each other in the epicentre of their conflict. Maybe the Israelis need to see the living conditions in Gaza and the West Bank, live the life of a Palestinian in the occupied territories just for a week. That would really be the best solution. You can't leave that 'epicentre of the conflict' out of the equation. How can the Israelis really understand the Palestinians, if they can't see what their policies are doing to these people?

Quote:
so maybe some education of americans would help

I'll start right here - with you. Smile

Quote:
i don't know that this is true, or fair (the part about israel just not wanting peace).

As I've said countless times, the Palestine Papers revealed that during negotiations, the Palestinians offered up everything - everything - and offered to give Israel exactly what it had always claimed it wanted... but Israel flat out refused.

There are countless other examples - such as Israel continuing to build settlements on the West Bank during the negotiations - but that is the most damning one. It's right there, black on white, that Israel simply does not want peace.

Quote:
israel wants security, and solid assurance that people no longer want to push them into the sea.

Who would 'push them into the sea' (to use that horrible, horrible phrase)? Israel isn't the underdog here, nor is it the victim. Right now, it could easily hold off all its neighbours with relative ease. That's how powerful their army is in comparison to their neighbours'. And guess what: most of their neighbours are actually friendly or at least neutral to Israel. Not to mention that any invasion would immediately get the US and Europe involved. It even has nukes!

The chances of Israel being invaded are zero. The chances of small groups like Hezbollah or maybe even Hamas doing any sort of serious damage to Israel are zero. Israel is not at risk at all.

In fact, it's quite the opposite situation. Israel is the one that forms a risk to its neighbours. They're scared shitless and rightly so. Right on their borders, they have the most powerful state in the area, backed up by the most powerful state in the world.

And you'll find that that is what history has shown. And I don't even have to be controversial about that. I could go into detail about the first few wars - who started what and what were there goals, etc, because that's a whole nest of lies and propaganda in itself - but I'll focus on everything, say, post 1975. Because since then, not a single nation has invaded Israel. However, Israel has invaded Lebanon on three separate occasions - committing horrible war crimes, by the way -, have made several 'incursions' into Syrian and Irani territory, have invaded Gaza several times and are actively expanding into the West Bank. And that's the things they've been doing above board. They've been happily assassinating all along too.

That's 36 years of Israeli aggression. That's the lack of security they've been complaining about.

Quote:
there are still people on the palestinian side who deny israel's existence as a country

There's still an Israeli government that denies - and actually succeed in denying - Palestine's existence as a country. Why is the stance of a group of individuals on the Palestinian side more important that the actual national policy of the Israeli state?

There is no credible threat to Israel. Israel will continue to exist, with or without a Palestinian state.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

now we just have to convince people to really believe that, deep down in their guts.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And honestly, as to how we should do that: that's something I don't have an answer for. Which is kinda depressing. I guess I'll settle for trying to convince individuals every time it comes up, maybe it'll help at least a bit.
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