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Occupy Wall Street Thread
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Martian Kyo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am staying on topic, but switching the conversation flow here. What's your opinion on the worldwide Occupy protests. I am afraid this thing might go wrong if it explodes.

My biggest problem with protests in general is that they are destructive in nature. Their aim is usually to bring something down. The reasons for this aim however differ greatly even from one protestant to another.

Not to mention that no unified solution or alternatives are offered.

Yes banks are greedy! Yes they cheat people. But should we destroy the banking system? Will that just send us straight into anarchy (at least an economic one).

Should we protests in front of banks and corporations or in front of governments who give too much freedom to the corporations.

The best protest would be to massively withdraw deposits from banks. I work at the bank, and trust me when that happened a few years back it's trouble for the bank.

Stop buying corporations products (yes the xbox's, the iphones, the playstations, the nikes) but are we will willing to that up?
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Arc Tempest



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I wrote last week in a FB discussion (part of which I put in the Socrates thread) still applies.

Quote:
I think I see the disconnect now. I see protests solely as a means of supporting or discouraging an idea or action, you folks see it as a means of generating them. I really, really hope you're right. I think you're wrong, and I'd bet you five dollars here and now that we won't see significant change out of this, but I hope you're right. All I see from here is motion, not action.


And for shits and giggles, an intriguing take on the whole thing:

http://www.nypress.com/article-10100-well-that-was-fun.html
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Martian Kyo



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well said.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martian Kyo wrote:
words

Okay, let me explain:

The protests aren't destructive in any way. They may use certain slogans (eat the rich) that sound destructive, but the actual goal behind each protest - and these differ from country to country - is not destructive. The only actual destructive types are Ron Paul's lolbertarians that show up to every protest with signs saying 'end the fed'. But they're just idiots who don't - or shouldn't, in some cases - represent the protests in general.

The goal of the protests in all the countries involved is never to end the banking system. Hell, even the anti-capitalist protests outside of the US never advocate such a thing. The actual demands aren't very clear yet, in some cases - specifically the American protests. However, they all share the same sentiment:
- More regulation and welfare
- Less corruption
- More democracy

I hear the Americans are going with electoral - and specifically lobbying - reforms. In Italy, it's more about breaking Berlusconi's pseudo-dictatorship and against austerity cuts. Spain, against austerity and against corruption, etc.

You shouldn't be afraid things will go bad if they 'explode'. This isn't the Arab Spring, things will never get worse than the usual riots - and that's only in Europe, the US probably won't even have that.

To answer your question: You should protest against both. But protests against governments are common, corporations deserve their share of the hate. I'll also note that this is specific to each country as well. In countries like Spain and Italy, the government is getting the brunt of the hate. In the US, it's Wall Street - it's where the power lies, really.

And people have been trying to withdraw their money from banks as a form of protest. There are videos floating around, I believe. The second the bank knew what was up, they locked the building down. So, not that successful. Problem is that you can't just withdraw all your money and put it under your bed. And most countries don't have 'fair' banks. Brits could transfer their money to a Co-op account, I guess.

Consumer boycotts are useless, by the way. You can never get enough people to boycott something to cut into a company's profit. Direct action is better.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good gravy do we need lobbying and electoral reforms. In the US the main alternative to banks are credit unions.
wiki wrote:
A credit union is a cooperative financial institution that is owned and controlled by its members and operated for the purpose of promoting thrift, providing credit at competitive rates, and providing other financial services to its members.

The World Council of Credit Unions (WOCCU) defines credit unions as "not-for-profit cooperative institutions".In practice however, legal arrangements vary by jurisdiction. For example in Canada credit unions are regulated as for-profit institutions, and view their mandate as earning a reasonable profit to enhance services to members and ensure stable growth.
This difference in viewpoints reflects credit unions' unusual organizational structure, which attempts to solve the principal-agent problem by ensuring that the owners and the users of the institution are the same people. In any case, credit unions generally cannot accept donations and must be able to prosper in a competitive market economy.

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Martian Kyo



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the direct action here? (in U.S. specifically in Italy they threw rocks and set stuff on fire I suppose that's action)

The biggest illusion of a protestant is his/her expectation.
What do people really expect to happen now?
What is the goal of this protest?
What are their specific demands?

and most importantly
How will they know they succeeded with their protests?
Do they expect the banks to disappear? Do they expect the banks/government to forget their student loans?


I've been a part of couple of protests, one ended in a war.
The other 'succeeded', only once people started to throw bricks, but in that protest we knew we wanted specifically, resignations of couple of people.

I am not sure what this occupy thing wants to achieve, to me it seems aimless.
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Him



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check the link I posted on the end of the other page. One of the protesters there is speaking about those issues.
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Martian Kyo



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay that guy is basically saying (more eloquently) what I am trying to say.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martian Kyo wrote:
What's the direct action here? (in U.S. specifically in Italy they threw rocks and set stuff on fire I suppose that's action)

The biggest illusion of a protestant is his/her expectation.
What do people really expect to happen now?
What is the goal of this protest?
What are their specific demands?

and most importantly
How will they know they succeeded with their protests?
Do they expect the banks to disappear? Do they expect the banks/government to forget their student loans?


I've been a part of couple of protests, one ended in a war.
The other 'succeeded', only once people started to throw bricks, but in that protest we knew we wanted specifically, resignations of couple of people.

I am not sure what this occupy thing wants to achieve, to me it seems aimless.

Willful ignorance and political apathy are HUGE problems in the US, especially amongst large portions of potential voters.

Raising awareness about and creating wide spread conversations of critical issues is a victory in and of itself.
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:30 am    Post subject: World War 3 starts innocently enough. Reply with quote

Peaceful protesting only works when the protesters are constantly reminded of the injustice and corruption inherently placed in the system. That's why peaceful protesting worked for Dr. King.

A few measly benefits and consolation prizes will disperse the crowd more rapidly than any police brutality.

I'd be surprised if there was a call for violence in this age of entitlement.
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Martian Kyo



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:

Willful ignorance and political apathy are HUGE problems in the US, especially amongst large portions of potential voters.

Raising awareness about and creating wide spread conversations of critical issues is a victory in and of itself.


That IS true. These protest probably won't achieve what they are set out to achieve. However they will connect people who want to change things, and will help build a foundation for future change.

That's what happened in the protests here 3 years ago, it was also internet organized. While the protests essentially failed, what was left after them was an organized group of people who still act in small but more concrete manner. These people wouldn't know each other without the protest.

All I am actually trying to say is people have unrealistic expectations of how quickly the change will happen. The protest of itself to won't change anything. And change won't come soon. In essence you can't fight for your future (it's too late, positive change takes too much time), but you can fight for your children's future.

It's a sad fact that positive change takes much much much longer, then a negative one.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martian Kyo wrote:
It's a sad fact that positive change takes much much much longer, then a negative one.

Not really. People are more likely to down play or fail to realize the initial actions that lead to negative changes.
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DeD CHiKn



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willem wrote:
DeD CHiKn wrote:
If that's how you want to see it, knock your socks off.

What? You're angry because it's unfair, which is only normal. How else should I see it?


No, I'm angry because I see this kind of stuff everyday. I don't really want it for myself as much as I want it to just not happen.

And you can make excuses for it, you can call it other names, you can say it's a minimal percentage doing it (which it probably is), but that doesn't mean nothing should be done about it.

Dogen wrote:
I think we chased off Ded. Sad


I try not to log on during weekends.
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LD!



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You live in Baltimore. You have to take things in perspective.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeD CHiKn wrote:
No, I'm angry because I see this kind of stuff everyday. I don't really want it for myself as much as I want it to just not happen.

And you can make excuses for it, you can call it other names, you can say it's a minimal percentage doing it (which it probably is), but that doesn't mean nothing should be done about it.

do you think that it should take priority over the things the people at ows are suggesting

how would you go about fixing it
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