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Occupy Wall Street Thread
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Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: On edge

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arc Tempest wrote:
The democrats had nothing to absorb. There was never a group of anti-war advocates with any meaningful amount of political capital or even organization. Folks protested the wars, yes, but to pretend there was anything that could be accurately described as a "movement" is delusional.

And to pretend that the Occupy folks are a true movement is just as bad, no leaders, no organization, no agenda, and no means of affecting the change they espouse (never mind that Occupy has become home for a half dozen different conflicting ideologies who would tear each other apart if they did have a smidgen of power).

My one liner wasn't meant to be clever, it was simply a statement of fact. You either have no comprehension of politics in general and current American politics in particular, or you live in a magical alternate dimension that somehow interfaces with ours through this message board.

Either way, what you said is dumb in the context of this reality.
I understand it might appear that way to someone who has no understanding of, let alone has ever been involved in, social movements. There was never an anti-war movement? Right, right...
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand it might appear that way to someone who has no understanding of, let alone has ever been involved in, United States politics and society. There was an anti-war movement? Right, right...

Only if you do to the word "movement" what the US military does to people at Gitmo was the "anti-war movement" against the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq a "movement" and not just a handful of people with signs being ignored at best and scorned at worst.
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Arc Tempest



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
I understand it might appear that way to someone who has no understanding of, let alone has ever been involved in, social movements.


That would be a great counterpoint if it were at all true.

Just because there are protests does not mean there is a movement. The anti-war folks protested periodically throughout the Bush administration (and the die-hards still do), but there is not, and never has been, anything that could be considered a movement behind it.

But hey, feel free to continue pretending you know more about these protests than someone who took part in them. I'm sure you're right and I just missed the movement mailing list when it got passed around.
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Him



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Handfull of people with signs? Nope, but Way to prove my point. The anti-war movement was huge, one of the biggest global movements ever. Learn some history. A People's History of the united states by Howard Zinn is my tip.
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Arc Tempest



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As much as I love Zinn, if you're accepting his assertions at face value, you need your head checked. The man was the walking definition of a biased source.
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Him



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arc Tempest wrote:
Him wrote:
I understand it might appear that way to someone who has no understanding of, let alone has ever been involved in, social movements.


That would be a great counterpoint if it were at all true.

Just because there are protests does not mean there is a movement. The anti-war folks protested periodically throughout the Bush administration (and the die-hards still do), but there is not, and never has been, anything that could be considered a movement behind it.

But hey, feel free to continue pretending you know more about these protests than someone who took part in them. I'm sure you're right and I just missed the movement mailing list when it got passed around.
no but I think you missed my point though.
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Him



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arc Tempest wrote:
As much as I love Zinn, if you're accepting his assertions at face value, you need your head checked. The man was the walking definition of a biased source.
Uhu so as much as you love Zinn that's all biased and you need your head checked if you believe it? Sure sounds like love to me.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. So I tell you that there was no anti-war movement to speak of in the United States and you say "no but there was one outside the United States!" And, incidentally, notice how effective they were.

No, there was no "anti-war movement" to speak of in the United States against the Afghanistan and Iraq wars, because the wars were sold and conducted in such a way as to prevent such movements from taking off. There was no draft. Only a tiny sliver of the population is in the military or directly connected to it, by family for instance. The wars fell off the news pretty quickly and turned into background noise, easily ignored by the electorate. There was no rationing, no pitches for war bonds, not even a tax hike to pay for it. Instead, the president told us to go shopping. And it doesn't help that both parties supported both wars at the outset and the Democratic president escalated one of them. There were and still are protestors against the war, but they are meaningless in the political landscape, because they are few, their arguments don't have the force of things like the draft behind them, and the wars are not the dominating issue on the political landscape. The reason the electorate turned against those wars was not "the anti-war movement," because there was no such movement. The electorate turned against the Iraq war once it became apparent that the pretexts for it were all false and it was going nowhere and just getting Americans killed pointlessly. The electorate turns against the Afghanistan war for the same reason--to the extent that they even remember that it's still going on.

So no, it was not the Democrats who destroyed the anti-war movement. It was Bush and his buddies, who destroyed it before it began.

Socialist echo chamber noise and getting linked to once in a while on Huffington Post or whatever does not make you mainstream in the United States. Nor does it mean that you have a "movement," except perhaps of the bowel variety.
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Arc Tempest



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
Uhu so as much as you love Zinn that's all biased and you need your head checked if you believe it? Sure sounds like love to me.


Zinn is a touchstone of American history studies (A People's History is actually used as a supplementary textbook in many high school history classes), he has an excellent writing style, and he often uses excerpts from primary sources instead of paraphrasing (which is something I absolutely love in a historian). His focus on telling the untold stories and, in many cases, the stories folks with power don't want told make him an inspiration to me.

But in later years he allowed his political leanings to fudge some facts, apply a little grease to the camera lens of current events, and as such those writings should be viewed with healthy skepticism. Love should not blind one to reality.

Him wrote:
no but I think you missed my point though.


Illuminate me.
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Him



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arc Tempest wrote:
Him wrote:
Uhu so as much as you love Zinn that's all biased and you need your head checked if you believe it? Sure sounds like love to me.


Zinn is a touchstone of American history studies (A People's History is actually used as a supplementary textbook in many high school history classes), he has an excellent writing style, and he often uses excerpts from primary sources instead of paraphrasing (which is something I absolutely love in a historian). His focus on telling the untold stories and, in many cases, the stories folks with power don't want told make him an inspiration to me.

But in later years he allowed his political leanings to fudge some facts, apply a little grease to the camera lens of current events, and as such those writings should be viewed with healthy skepticism. Love should not blind one to reality.

Him wrote:
no but I think you missed my point though.


Illuminate me.

I was specifically recommending A People's History. So yeah.

Well, see I am not disagreeing on the organizational criticism. But I meant movement more generally. I mean we are talking literally millions out on the streets against the wars. Precisely because the lack of organizational structure, and the fact that existed got eaten up by the Democrats, allowed the Democrats to pacify (no pun intended) the movement. I mean where were the protests against the surge in Afghanistan? Meanwhile well over 50% say they oppose the war in opinion polls. So I am actually agreeing with you more than I disagree, that's why I think we might have misunderstood each other.

Shadowcell: I don't judge movmements by the amount of media exposure they recieve, sorry.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
I mean where were the protests against the surge in Afghanistan? Meanwhile well over 50% say they oppose the war in opinion polls.


Most people don't like protesting, most people don't have time for protesting and most people don't see the benefit of protesting.
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Guest



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
Him wrote:
I mean where were the protests against the surge in Afghanistan? Meanwhile well over 50% say they oppose the war in opinion polls.


Most people don't like protesting, most people don't have time for protesting and most people don't see the benefit of protesting.


There's that "most people" generalization of yours again, Snorri. You really should stop that.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And where were these "literally millions out on the streets against the wars" in the US?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
And where were these "literally millions out on the streets against the wars" in the US?


How far back in time are we talking here?
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're talking about the US anti-war movement against the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, so that would be roughly to October, 2001. Him is claiming that the Democrats absorbed and thus destroyed the relevant movement; I am claiming that no such movement existed.
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