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Darqcyde
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 9086
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.
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 Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Monkey Mcdermott wrote: | | Also, White/Male privilege sadly means you aren't going to understand how it feels for say, a woman to be called a whore, or a black person to be called a nigger by a member of the demographic that basically set up the society which implemented those terms as a slur in the first place. |
I'm black/white/hispanic and my name is Omar (Shortly after 9/11) I had job interviewers hang up on me after hearing my name). I've been called spic, nigger, sand nigger, wetback, darkie, towel-head, and even gook(still trying to figure that one out) and more. Until high school there were less than a dozen non-white students out of a class of over 300. My neighbor four houses away flies a confederate flag and wears a jacket with a KKK logo on it.
Me:
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Last edited by Darqcyde on Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Willem
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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So you know how it feels to be discriminated. Now imagine also being a woman.
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attitude of a street punk, only cutting selected words out of context to get onself excuse to let one's dirty mouth loose |
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Monkey Mcdermott
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 2729
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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White/male is intended as interchangeable. The combination of the two is pretty much the far end of the "society is better for you than people without this combination of traits"
But there is a spectrum.
Edit: Otherwise I'd have phrased it White male privilege. However the assumption that White is the norm is a major part of White privilege and should certainly be called out when noticed. |
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Yorick
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 12066
Location: Mary's kesh
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| ShadowCell wrote: | | what the hell is the relevant distinction between "whore" and "slut" |
one gets paid?
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Darqcyde
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 9086
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Willem wrote: | | So you know how it feels to be discriminated. Now imagine also being a woman. |
Couldn't even begin and I'm not gonna try. Also, you're not gonna change my mind on this. It's not that I don't understand you or the issue, I disagree with your solution. To me, making a word taboo and/or avoiding it's usage only gives it more power and weight. You can't make words disappear as was said, so changing how they are used and associated becomes the only option.
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...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.
http://12ozlb.blogspot.com |
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Darqcyde
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 9086
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Yorick wrote: | | ShadowCell wrote: | | what the hell is the relevant distinction between "whore" and "slut" |
one gets paid? |
Whore has it's roots as a gender neutral word. Slut has ALWAYS been used as a pejoratively against women.
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...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.
http://12ozlb.blogspot.com |
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ShadowCell
Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 5264
Location: California
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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which is nice and completely utterly irrelevant because that's exactly how you used the word "whore," so all your simpering about etymology and "taking back the word" is completely utterly irrelevant.
you aren't part of the solution. nor are you proposing a solution. you're part of the problem. |
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Darqcyde
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 9086
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| ShadowCell wrote: | which is nice and completely utterly irrelevant because that's exactly how you used the word "whore," so all your simpering about etymology and "taking back the word" is completely utterly irrelevant.
you aren't part of the solution. nor are you proposing a solution. you're part of the problem. |
Um I called her a whore because she was sleeping around, not because she's a woman. I judged her actions based upon their own merits and not any inherent status or role she may possess. If she had been a guy I would have still called him a whore.
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...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.
http://12ozlb.blogspot.com |
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ShadowCell
Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 5264
Location: California
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Darqcyde wrote: | | Um I called her a whore because she was sleeping around, not because she's a woman. I judged her actions based upon their own merits and not any inherent status or role she may possess. If she had been a guy I would have still called him a whore. |
| Darqcyde has evidently forgotten that he wrote: | | Sooo the whole world gets to know she's a cheating whore? i mean, if i taking action i wouldn't be showing it off so much considering the story. |
yeah no |
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Darqcyde
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 9086
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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A whore is someone who sleeps with others for personal gain, I don't see the issue you're trying to present. You're the one viewing it with sexist connotations, not me.
Also wtf was I saying in that second half? what's the time stamp on that?
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...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.
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Guest
Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 2163
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Willem wrote: | | So you know how it feels to be discriminated. Now imagine also being a woman. |
Hahahahahahahahaha
Please. Stop. My sides. You're being insufferable. That's a way to lead someone: Oh, so you have been discriminated upon? Huh. Well. Then imagine being a woman. Oh sic burn! No. Get the fuck out. Take that attitude and stuff it.
It's comparable to saying you're well off "compared to people in worse places." Which makes everything better, doesn't it? And puts everything into perspective, oh, and you really shouldn't complain because there is always someone worse off than you. Because I imagine people who are worse off than others wants you to feel just as bad as they do. So maybe he should've used a better word, but give it a fucking rest with your moral posturing, won't you? As if you've never used a word that's "inappropriate" in other contexts. You're not exactly the moral guide for that sort of thing, are you, Willem? "Whore", by the way, as well you should know studying history, has been used for both genders since its conception. It's not used to just discriminate against women, that's a fucking falsehood -- and you know it.
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zeezee
Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 4410
Location: saint louis
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Darqcyde wrote: | | Willem wrote: | | Darqcyde wrote: | | Sooo the whole world gets to know she's a cheating whore? i mean, if i taking action i wouldn't be showing it off so much considering the story. |
shut the fuck up darq |
No, you shut the fuck up. |
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Willem
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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Good to know Guest still makes his posts by laying tiny, little turds on the appropriate keys. Let's see.
| Quote: | | It's comparable to saying you're well off "compared to people in worse places." Which makes everything better, doesn't it? And puts everything into perspective, oh, and you really shouldn't complain because there is always someone worse off than you. Because I imagine people who are worse off than others wants you to feel just as bad as they do. |
This is actually the exact opposite of what I meant. No foolin', I don't like that relativism either. My point wasn't "you're being discriminated, but women have it worse". My point was: "You're being discriminated and that's a bad thing. That's why you should definitely know that discriminating someone else is bad as well, because of your own experiences with discrimination." Both are bad. Maybe I should've pulled that 'also' from that sentence, because it clouds the message slightly, but there we go. No confusion? 'kay.
| Quote: | | So maybe he should've used a better word, but give it a fucking rest with your moral posturing, won't you? As if you've never used a word that's "inappropriate" in other contexts. You're not exactly the moral guide for that sort of thing, are you, Willem? |
If you're calling someone out on a fallacy (wrongfully, in this case, but whatever), it's best not to follow it up with one of your own. I guess it doesn't matter if my record isn't clean, I recognise that I've said and did stupid things in the past and I recognise that I have to avoid falling into those traps again. And it's not moral posturing when I'm just saying 'hey, stop being part of the problem okay'
| Quote: | | "Whore", by the way, as well you should know studying history, has been used for both genders since its conception. It's not used to just discriminate against women, that's a fucking falsehood -- and you know it |
I know this is complicated. I know. But listen up: Whore can be used for both genders. That's true. Very true.
But I looked it up in three online dictionaries. Dictionary.com, Cambridge online dictionary and mirriam-websters. Only the last one didn't specifically define it as a woman only-word. But let's ignore that. Dictionaries aren't infallible and it doesn't matter what they say. Why? Because while the word can be used for both genders, it's still mainly used - not intentionally, mind - to discriminate against women. That little thing we talked about, remember? Context?
But that's not the word's fault. If he called that woman a 'cunt' (like in the other thread), it would be equally bad. It's not about the word itself. It can be used without being inherently misogynistic (when describing a prostitute, although only when talking about them in neutral terms and even then it's up for dispute. Prostitute is preferable anyway, but I digress.), but that's not how it was used here. The sentiment he was trying to get across was inherently misogynistic. Let's quote him here:
| Quote: | Sooo the whole world gets to know she's a cheating whore? i mean, if i taking action i wouldn't be showing it off so much considering the story.
...
A whore is someone who sleeps with others for personal gain, |
Darq, you can chime in on this one as well. Now, keep in mind that this is all based on a hoax, but Darq didn't know that at the time. He starts by ignoring the whole 'unwanted tattoo' part of the story and hones in on the woman cheating on her boyfriend. He decides that he needs to speak out and instead of expressing his sentiment that she shouldn't be publicly complaining about her boyfriends actions (this sentiment is also misogynistic) by saying 'so the whole world gets to know she cheated on him', he calls her a whore. Which he then later defines as someone who sleeps with others for personal gain. But I'm not really seeing this in this story, so Darq, can you explain? What did she do to qualify the 'whore'-tag?
Can you see the layers of misogyny here? Even if the words were different, it would still be misogynistic. So Guest, you're right: it's not used just to discriminate against women, but more than often it is and in this case it definitely was.
Now read this post again:
| Dogen wrote: | What he means is that, in the larger social context, whore is a word used to shame and denigrate women. When applied to men it carries a lot less negativity because of the social acceptance of male promiscuity as somehow natural or acceptable, where as women are supposed to be chaste. Thus, regardless of whether you use the term in an egalitarian fashion, it doesn't have an egalitarian meaning to the rest of society. It's simply a word to put women in their place.
See, you can't just decide how everyone gets to understand things. You can't tell women not to be offended when you call them whores, or black people not to be offended when you call them niggers, or rape victims to just get over it, or anything else because ours is a shared experience in which everyone brings a lifetime of experience through which your message gets filtered. Regardless of how you mean it, if you ignore the larger social contexts of historical denigration and suppression of women and minorities then you're either being inconsiderate, rude, uncompassionate... or you have a sense of naive realism and think the world is how you perceive it, without realizing the subjective nature of your experience.
Just in case you were thinking this, you can't "take back the word." Men can't take back a word used by men to denigrate women, just like white people can't take back nigger and make it a happy, friendly word. It was already a male word, and when used by men it carries the negative and shameful context. Period. |
So in your post you argued against the opposite of what I said (aggressively agreeing with me, basically), threw in a fallacy and finished off by nitpicking (aggressively) while ignoring the point of the whole discussion. Are you up to speed after this post or do you still feel the need to disagree?
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attitude of a street punk, only cutting selected words out of context to get onself excuse to let one's dirty mouth loose |
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Dogen
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 9311
Location: Bellingham, WA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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Naive realism it is, then. Now that Guest is here at least he won't feel alone.
I like to think I have a lot of sympathy, but ignorance is a choice bred of irrationality and inexperience. Paired with indolence, you have an impenetrable wall. That, I find irritating.
You're wrong. You know you're wrong, and have talked yourself into a stupid corner where archaic definitions (which have little bearing on questions of context) and willfully ignoring well-spoken arguments are your only refuge from the utter horror of admitting you're wrong. Take the power out of the word? Sure. You walk around calling women whores, toss in some bitches and sluts, and see how much help you do to women, you pillar of egalitarianism you.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3524
Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR
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