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Guest
Joined: 15 Aug 2006
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Samsally
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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 Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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I just doubt that if a dude shows up to a feminist presentation looking apprehensive he probably doesn't have to worry about every woman in the room staring at his ass until he left.
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CTrees
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 3612
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Dogen wrote: | | Darqcyde wrote: | | Snorri wrote: |
You've survived less car accidents than your wife? |
I've been in two, she's been in three, including one where the vehicle rolled over. |
WTF? Are you professional stunt drivers? I've been in one accident. I slid on a patch of ice going 7mph and bumped into a guy's trailer hitch. |
I've been hit by other drivers FIVE times, one of which was a hit-and-run. I've only been driving 8.5 years. I swear I have a freaking target painted on my bumper.
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jwing
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| Guest wrote: |
| Quote: | | Though, some of those articles and videos and things on stuff actual people have said and done to women are pretty horrifying to me, so I guess I might fit into the group of girls who are interested but not willing to fully participate because of the existing bad reputation (whether it's truthfully represented or not). |
I wasn't trying to undermine your experiences in the card shop, I was simply saying that this could well apply to people who're apprehensive to feminism as well due to its radical element. That was the parallel, because I'm sure that the gamer culture suffer from this element too. I didn't mean to offend. |
Using that logic, Guest, then we should be apprehensive to do pretty much anything. Religion, politics, workplace, internet, real world -- all have radical elements. We can't wear skirts while walking down the street or riding a bus because there are guys who will take pictures up our skirts *and it's fucking legal*. We can't have access to decent LEGAL medical procedures (and in one state it is legal for the doctors to LIE TO US) because of radical elements in the government, thanks to radical elements in the religious leaders who have sway over politician. Thanks to the radical elements of /4chan/, a blogger whose only 'crime' was to be female and ask for money to research and educate on gaming tropes has been subjected to harrassment, rape threats and death threats. Many other bloggers face daily harrassment solely because they are women.
And yes, the few times I've played MMOs I have been sworn at, ridiculed and harrassed as soon as my gender was determined. I've been stared at in comic shops and directed to the Archies when I wanted X-men.
When I was in product support (answering users' questions over the phone) I assisted a client who then called back. He got me again and, mishearing my name (and my voice was pitched lower because I had just coughed), said "I got this answer and I don't think she knew what she was talking about." And proceeded to ask me the same question I answered the last time we talked.
The thing is, Guest, these aren't isolated incidents done by radical elements. These are things that happen every fucking day to pretty much every fucking woman out there. This shit doesn't happen in a void, to quote Ms McEwan. This is why feminism is still important.
| Quote: | | When we see seriously bad comments about girls playing games in gaming fora (kitchen jokes, tits or gtfo, etc), I don't really think the rest of that community just nods their collective heads and agrees with it. In many, many cases comments like those would not fly |
Wanna bet? It's not that they may not agree with it; more likely they also may not even notice it. Or think "get over it, it's just the internet" or "wow, you're really sensitive/humorless/overemotional." Or consciously decide that it isn't worth it, that playing the game is more important that calling someone on their douchebaggery. Or last time they did step up and try to not that comments like that fly, they were piled on and derided and harrassed as well.
If you play on servers that have a supportive community, that really doesn't allow misogyny to flourish, that immediately calls out harrassers and bans trolls, then allow me to be the first person to congratulate you on discovering the rarest thing since angel farts. |
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Samsally
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:21 am Post subject: |
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So I'm still really ticked off about that Tomb Raider thing. Trigger warning because fuck, that game is a trigger.
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Samsally the Gray |
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jwing
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| Samsally wrote: | | So I'm still really ticked off about that Tomb Raider thing. Trigger warning because fuck, that game is a trigger. |
Yeah, massive fail on Crystal Dynamics and all the people who thought "yeah, this is a good idea." |
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DeD CHiKn
Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 9861
Location: Baltimore, Maryla*gunshot*
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| Dogen wrote: | | WTF? Are you professional stunt drivers? I've been in one accident. I slid on a patch of ice going 7mph and bumped into a guy's trailer hitch. |
Does that even count?
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Guest
Joined: 15 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| jwing wrote: | | Guest wrote: |
| Quote: | | Though, some of those articles and videos and things on stuff actual people have said and done to women are pretty horrifying to me, so I guess I might fit into the group of girls who are interested but not willing to fully participate because of the existing bad reputation (whether it's truthfully represented or not). |
I wasn't trying to undermine your experiences in the card shop, I was simply saying that this could well apply to people who're apprehensive to feminism as well due to its radical element. That was the parallel, because I'm sure that the gamer culture suffer from this element too. I didn't mean to offend. |
Using that logic, Guest, then we should be apprehensive to do pretty much anything. Religion, politics, workplace, internet, real world -- all have radical elements. |
Yes, exactly. That is exactly it. Which is why I also said that the radical element doesn't necessarily reflect the entire group as a whole, in feminist groups, in gaming groups, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, und so weite.
| Quote: | | We can't wear skirts while walking down the street or riding a bus because there are guys who will take pictures up our skirts *and it's fucking legal*. We can't have access to decent LEGAL medical procedures (and in one state it is legal for the doctors to LIE TO US) because of radical elements in the government, thanks to radical elements in the religious leaders who have sway over politician. Thanks to the radical elements of /4chan/, a blogger whose only 'crime' was to be female and ask for money to research and educate on gaming tropes has been subjected to harrassment, rape threats and death threats. Many other bloggers face daily harrassment solely because they are women. |
Yeah, but how many people speak up to it? A lot. For Feminist Frequency, or Anita Sarkeesian, the comments on her Kickstarter are 90% positive or more to the project, and the more or less sexist comments do not go unnoticed. (Don't believe me, check.) As for YouTube ... the amount of false DMCA's that has affected both female and male 'tubers who've acheived fame on there is phenomenal. Also harassment and death threats.
| Quote: | And yes, the few times I've played MMOs I have been sworn at, ridiculed and harrassed as soon as my gender was determined. I've been stared at in comic shops and directed to the Archies when I wanted X-men.
When I was in product support (answering users' questions over the phone) I assisted a client who then called back. He got me again and, mishearing my name (and my voice was pitched lower because I had just coughed), said "I got this answer and I don't think she knew what she was talking about." And proceeded to ask me the same question I answered the last time we talked. |
I'm sorry. Some people are idiots.
| Quote: | | The thing is, Guest, these aren't isolated incidents done by radical elements. These are things that happen every fucking day to pretty much every fucking woman out there. This shit doesn't happen in a void, to quote Ms McEwan. This is why feminism is still important. |
Yes, I agree, and I haven't been trying to smear feminism as an alternative. That wasn't my intent! But I disagree when you say it's not by radical elements. That automatically presupposes that the culture of comic books, games and films, etc, are populated by mostly sexist and misogynist men. That is precisely my point about radical elements in the first place, that they exist in the group but doesn't mean they represent the group, and that includes radical feminists.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | When we see seriously bad comments about girls playing games in gaming fora (kitchen jokes, tits or gtfo, etc), I don't really think the rest of that community just nods their collective heads and agrees with it. In many, many cases comments like those would not fly |
Wanna bet? It's not that they may not agree with it; more likely they also may not even notice it. Or think "get over it, it's just the internet" or "wow, you're really sensitive/humorless/overemotional."
Or consciously decide that it isn't worth it, that playing the game is more important that calling someone on their douchebaggery. Or last time they did step up and try to not that comments like that fly, they were piled on and derided and harrassed as well. |
When you say they don't notice, do you mean they actually did not see or that they ignore it? As you say, this is the internet. What you described just now is -- with the exclusion of sexist comments -- pretty much what happens to everyone. I'm sorry if you think that's downgrading your opinion, but what you just described is, regretably, behaviour that you will most likely see on the internet. Anonymity and all that.
| Quote: | | If you play on servers that have a supportive community, that really doesn't allow misogyny to flourish, that immediately calls out harrassers and bans trolls, then allow me to be the first person to congratulate you on discovering the rarest thing since angel farts. |
Unfortunately on this I cannot say. I've been in guilds that were extremely supportive and had zero tolerance on harassment, but beyond that...
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jwing
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Guest
Joined: 15 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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By definition
| Quote: | rad·i·cal
a : very different from the usual or traditional : extreme |
| Quote: | | Rape culture is encouraging male sexual aggression. Rape culture is regarding violence as sexy and sexuality as violent. Rape culture is treating rape as a compliment, as the unbridled passion stirred in a healthy man by a beautiful woman, making irresistible the urge to rip open her bodice or slam her against a wall, or a wrought-iron fence, or a car hood, or pull her by her hair, or shove her onto a bed, or any one of a million other images of fight-fucking in movies and television shows and on the covers of romance novels that convey violent urges are inextricably linked with (straight) sexuality. |
Is it the norm that men (not entirely sure why it's just men, but whatever) consider rape to be a 'compliment'? No? Then it's a radical element. Or do you think that men normally are misogynists first and egalitarian second?
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"Apparently so. But suppose you throw a coin enough times, suppose one day. . . it lands on its edge."
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Snorri
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10706
Location: hiding the decline.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Guest wrote: | By definition
| Quote: | rad·i·cal
a : very different from the usual or traditional : extreme |
| Quote: | | Rape culture is encouraging male sexual aggression. Rape culture is regarding violence as sexy and sexuality as violent. Rape culture is treating rape as a compliment, as the unbridled passion stirred in a healthy man by a beautiful woman, making irresistible the urge to rip open her bodice or slam her against a wall, or a wrought-iron fence, or a car hood, or pull her by her hair, or shove her onto a bed, or any one of a million other images of fight-fucking in movies and television shows and on the covers of romance novels that convey violent urges are inextricably linked with (straight) sexuality. |
Is it the norm that men (not entirely sure why it's just men, but whatever) consider rape to be a 'compliment'? No? Then it's a radical element. Or do you think that men normally are misogynists first and egalitarian second? |
Something does not have to be the norm in order to be not radical.
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Snorri
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: hiding the decline.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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also, yes, it's pretty normal that rape is considered a compliment. as in, that someone would consider raping you is a testament to your beauty.
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Willem
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: wasteland style
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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Guest, don't downplay the harassment women face online and in gamer circles specifically because harassment also happens to men. While it's true that everybody has to deal with harassment online, women are much more likely to become victims of harassment and they're often harassed only for the crime of being a woman. If someone calls you a shit for liking the wrong kind of anime, it's not the same as the type of harassment women get for simply being female and online. Online or alive, seeing as you don't even need an active online presence to be harassed - as is the case with the many women that appear in all those misogynist memes and shit.
I also think you're underestimating the prevalence of misogyny in gamer communities. This isn't just some 'radical elements'. You've had some trouble in the past in identifying misogyny - especially the casual kind -, so I assume it's more difficult to spot in the wild if you're not actively looking for it. But trust me on this one: it's bad. Oh so bad.
| Quote: | | That automatically presupposes that the culture of comic books, games and films, etc, are populated by mostly sexist and misogynist men |
Except this is true? I mean, the subcultures at least. Difference between Gamers and gamers and all that.
Also, stop downplaying jwing and Sam's Actual Experiences with your 'people are idiots and it's probably not that bad' attitude, tia.
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Guest
Joined: 15 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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... Ok. Since we're talking about a sociological issue and not strictly an opinion issue, where actions matter, is it normal that men -- most men -- consider rape to be a compliment? Where these things happen, often, for these very reasons? Is it normal that most men (again, why just men here? whatever) lump homosexual sexuality with pedophilia and bestiality? And so on, I can just link it here.
| Quote: | | also, yes, it's pretty normal that rape is considered a compliment. as in, that someone would consider raping you is a testament to your beauty. |
In what culture? Pakistan? Iraq? India?
The US?
Can you back this up with any sort of evidence what so ever? Melissa from Shakesville doesn't offer any kind of substantive proof to this claim as well, only anecdotal.
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"Apparently so. But suppose you throw a coin enough times, suppose one day. . . it lands on its edge."
--Amy Hennig, Soul Reaver 2 |
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Willem
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 6306
Location: wasteland style
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Christ Guest, it's not that complicated. It's right there in the words you quoted. Just ignore the word 'compliment' for a second.
Sexually violent behaviour - and rape - is often portrayed as an act of passion, a display of desire and as something positive that women should desire. The example given is:
| Quote: | | the unbridled passion stirred in a healthy man by a beautiful woman, making irresistible the urge to rip open her bodice or slam her against a wall, or a wrought-iron fence, or a car hood, or pull her by her hair, or shove her onto a bed |
Imagine the scene where a man pushes a reluctant woman he's been having a sort of love-hate relationship with against a wall. He holds her arms above her head and kisses her. She's reluctant, but ultimately gives in.
It's a common scene. A trope. And while it's not explicitly rape, it and the many other examples of how sexual violence is supposed to represent passion/desire do contribute to rape culture. Sexual violence becomes passion. Passion is a good thing. Sexual violence is shown to be a good thing. Something to be desired. Films and TV love to play into that whole 'A man should take his woman' bullshit.
So, no, it's not a compliment like saying she's wearing nice shoes. But it's a compliment in that the act of rape is represented as being a positive thing. The man is paying a compliment to the woman, because she and her beauty made him desire her so much that he's willing to 'rape' her. To put it crudely. That's how rape culture - and TV/film - represent this.
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