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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9675

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:11 pm    Post subject: TEA IS UNGODLY Reply with quote

MellowFish wrote:
Sam wrote:
MellowFish wrote:
Secondly, I never said tobbacco was bad for you, and it's not: in the same way alcohol isn't bad for you unless you use it too much. Smoking is bad for you, even in moderation.


That's a wonderful position, but where I left off, I was talking about smoking tobacco being against God's rules. About how a person can't consume drugs of some forms for comfort or pleasure without doing it in a way which 'replaces God.' I was waiting for an argument backing up that one.


Drugs are a mere facet of this problem, which is getting strength, comfort or joy from anywhere but god. People are god's instruments for showing his comfort to other people, nature is his way of showing strength (including miracles which are just a part of nature we dont understand), and life in general is his way of giving joy. So it is wrong to take joy in battle, but right to take joy seeing a birth. Wrong to destroy nature for selfish ends, right to use it for our benefit as people. Wrong to indulge in the sins I listed in my other post: gluttony, drunkeness, etc. for comfort, right to find it in the love and caring of the people god has put in your life.

Long answer to a short question, but it had to be said to ward of further misinterpretations of a too narrow subject.


Nowhere are you actually explaining why the consumption of some forms of psychoactive drugs are a violation of God's will. I'm asking you about that, and you're giving me a shpiel on 'life = joy.'

However, you do lead it into more astounding territory! If I get strength, comfort or joy from 'anywhere but god' -- like, say, from a cup of tea, that's a problem now?
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Inept Villain



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 42
Location: A place of unending, horrifying mediocrity.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MellowFish wrote:

"Demons believe...and tremble." Believing in God isn't the point. Accepting that you have not and will not live a good life on your own is. God's standards are high, but they are absolute and beyond reproof.

You're missing the point entirely. God doesn't live up to his *own* standards... so he is undeserving of respect. I think the real problem here deals with technicalities. What is a "good life" to you is apparently VERY different from what I believe a good life to be. I am honest. I work hard. I don't drink or smoke. I shot the sheriff, but not the deputy. Most importantly though, I am a fairly nice guy. I would say that I carry out an existence which is decidedly moral and reasonably intelligent. If that isn't enough for you, or rather, God, then all I can say is that I tried. I'm not here to impress anybody. I cannot be anything more than what I am.

MellowFish wrote:

God gave us free will and the incredible power of the human mind and look at what we've done with it. God does not cause suffering, people do. He just uses it for his purposes to make the best of a bad situation. If he were to stop the suffering, there would be no new converts, becuase people who are blindly content where they are never change. Just look at drunks and addicts.

Actually, I could point out that since God created everything and holds sway over all creation-- it doesn't matter whether he chooses to do anything or not. He's too powerful to not recieve some measure of blame. The evil in the world is still God's fault, because he does nothing to prevent it. People may personally bring about war and strife, but it was God who put those metaphorical weapons in our hands. Ergo, God is the source of all suffering.
Your logic actually confirms my statement, by acknowledging that God allows misery and hatred to foster and spread in order to benefit his own ends. That's fucked up. You don't see how horribly wrong that is? How can you not see it?


MellowFish wrote:

Free will is free. We are not robots, christians are not the borg here to assimilate you into our collective. God gave free will to allow for complex and interesting relationships with his creation and to give them the opportunity to love him. An opportunity absent from angels, who have no free will. He knew full well that many would reject his offer and decided to deal with them the only way a loving god would: give them what they want in the end. Hell is not meant as a punishment for people, only for demons.

The way of life you represent is pretty damn close to being a soul-less automation. You have no ideas or personality of your own. You're just God's lowly servant. You're well spoken and capable, but is that enough? You're still a boot licker. I could never live that way. If all that you've said was true-- the very IDEA that God controls every aspect of my destiny and I am meaningless without him? I cringe at the thought. It's horrible. That is depressing on a whole new level of suck.
Somehow I don't think these "complex and interesting relationships" are a product of the system you adhere to. That couldn't be, because God demands conformity; which suppresses anything interesting.
What you're saying is that God deliberately fated some individuals to go to hell? Where there is pain everlasting? Well, I think I can do without that kind of messed up "love". That's serial killer logic.

MellowFish wrote:

For people, who are also immortal, it is the only place the people who chose to ignore god would not be in constant misery having to be around him.

That's it! Right there! God is a whiny little bitch! If he was a more tolerant, pleasant individual... I wouldn't mind being around the guy. Despite not worshipping him. I do not hate God, it is God who hates me. I can only be myself. I cannot PRETEND that I believe in God, when in my heart I do not. The ideal of God is way too evil and destructive to follow in good conscience.

MellowFish wrote:

Frankly it is of no consequence what matters to you, unless it is god. And for the record: you sir are immortal just like the rest of us, so you will have plenty of time to ponder life's meaning after you leave earth. I will say it only once more in this post, you cannot live a truly good life on your own. A "good deed" is a hollow shell without god's will behind it.

At last we have reached what is no longer a matter of debating theology, and what is purely a matter of opinion. What matters to me is for me to decide, otherwise free will is an illusion. If free will does not exist, it invalidates God's decree that it exists, and if it DOES exist... then God flat out lied because he wants you to live a certain way.
I am not immortal, and nor is anyone else. You believe that. I do not. I say that you can *only* live a truly good life on your own. Take some fucking responsibility. Stop passing the buck to God. If you personally make the choice to be a good person, and THEN not care whether some great afterlife party is waiting for you? That, to me, is more noble than a thousand kooks who had to turn to God because they were too weak hearted to do it on their own.
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Lasairfiona



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: I have to be somewhere? ::runs around frantically::

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MellowFish wrote:
Lasairfiona wrote:
May I point out that there are only 2 commandents. Please stick to those. Thanks.

edit: Boy, this popcorn is getting old. New batch!


There are two commandments that are listed by jesus as the greatest. All the others flow from them and it was the first of the 10 commandments I was referencing. I thought it was obvious.

PS: I had a whole bag of popcorm last night. It was delicious.

There are only two commandments. The 10 came from those two and therefore the other 8 are superfluous. Judism has 10, moder christianity has 2. If the 10 as written are not still in effect since Jesus was the fulfilment of the law.

Jesus basically said the law wasn't important as the two basic prinicples. If that wasn't true we would still be eating kosher.

You are not going to prove the existance of God. You can't and by assuming you can you are only showing yourself to be full of false pride. You should be showing love and compassion not judging people left and right. Show what it is to be a true christian.

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Before God created Las he pondered on all the aspects a woman might have, he considered which ones would look good super-inflated and which ones to leave alone.
After much deliberation he gave her a giant comfort zone. - Michael
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MellowFish



Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 755
Location: The Train to Gloryland

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jesus wrote:
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.


Now that sounds like a parent weeping for their wayward children, right? And God is desribed as the Holy Father. Now, for those who have never had a father, or never had a good father, this is what one looks like: He loves his child even when they make mistakes. He watches over them and tries to help, no matter what kind of mess they get themselves into, if they ask for it. But he also respects their wishes once they are old enough to make decisions for themselves. Including if they choose to abandon him in favor of their friends. In that case he lets them come to whatever end they will. But, as the father in the prodigal son did, the good father still waits at home, hoping and scanning the horizon for any sign of their beloved child. And then they celebrate like no one's business if they come back. Now, what does anyone not get about this being the character of God?
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DesolationRow



Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 232
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As expected, he totally bipassed replying to several people.
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MellowFish



Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 755
Location: The Train to Gloryland

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DesolationRow wrote:
As expected, he totally bipassed replying to several people.


Can I not choose which to reply to? And this last post was mainly in response to Inept over there, as he is the one most violently against the idea of god's love.
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Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. -- Frederick Douglass
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MellowFish



Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 755
Location: The Train to Gloryland

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For ZonedOut:

Have you every tried consuming or smoking poison ivy? Why pick out a plant and say "why can't I eat this" when it might not be intended for consumption? The ecosystem is vast beyond the flora and fauna that humans eat and use, and all of it is neccesary to maintain a proper environment for life. That is why the world would eventually die off anyway without an armaggeon: we have broken the life support system of our planet, and to think that we can reproduce it's far reaching benefits through technology is foolish.

PS. Don't get the idea I am a tree hugger. I believe that the destruction of the ecosystem started with the origional sin, as did all bad things. When we fell from perfection, we drug the whole of creation with us.
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Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. -- Frederick Douglass
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DesolationRow



Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 232
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not replying to those who have obviously made points that prove you're incorrect is a sign of cowardice and a fear of being made to look wrong. If you find out you're wrong, your whole ego and religious pride should be shattered. If you truely were knowledgeable as you claim you are, you would be able to affirm your beliefs without coming off as an ignorant prick.
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MellowFish



Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 755
Location: The Train to Gloryland

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:
Jesus basically said ...


Watch it. It is not wise to generalize. He was asked what the greated of the commandments was, and he answered with two, He did not say that any of the rest of them were false. We dont eat kosher becuase Peter had a vision where god told him not to. And I liked the person's idea in another thread that the kosher laws were made due to health concers anyway, so by the time jesus was around, they were no longer neccesary. None of the teachings jesus gave were less constricting than the old testament: do not call somone an idiot as compared to do not kill. Do not look at a woman with lust instead of do not commit adultery.

He is saying control your thoughts before they become actions, and then the actions wont come anyway. that's why I said I was a bad christian for the feeling of hate at lil evil's character, that is not really a healthy feeling becuase I am hating not just a comic, but everyone the comic represents.

And back to the origional topic which you were refuting, the first commandment is the same in both the list of 10 and the list of 2: "Love god with *all* your heart, soul, mind and strength" is the same as "You shall have no other gods before me"
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Lasairfiona



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9702
Location: I have to be somewhere? ::runs around frantically::

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Jesus meant for us to follow every letter of the law, I don't think he would have acted the way he did (saving us from the law). Every time he quoted old testament law, it was to make someone think about what they were saying. Do I have to start quoting chapter and verse?

And because Peter had a vision? Do you know how many sections of the bible have been edited out because they didn't fit the theme? 800 years of silence my ass. How do you know that a section wasn't left out that disagreed with removing the kosher laws?

And do look at what I wrote. I was never questioning the order of the list.

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Before God created Las he pondered on all the aspects a woman might have, he considered which ones would look good super-inflated and which ones to leave alone.
After much deliberation he gave her a giant comfort zone. - Michael
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MellowFish



Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 755
Location: The Train to Gloryland

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:
If Jesus meant for us to follow every letter of the law, I don't think he would have acted the way he did (saving us from the law). Every time he quoted old testament law, it was to make someone think about what they were saying. Do I have to start quoting chapter and verse?

And do look at what I wrote. I was never questioning the order of the list.


That Jesus saved us from the law does not mean we can ignore it. It simply means we wont go to hell for breaking it. It is still the outflowing of the two (or ten, becuase they were never invalidated) commandments, and should be the high bar we are shooting for. The difference between christians and non-christians is that christians have been shown exactly how far off center we are and have started walking back toward the path with god's help. Niether will ever walk that line (man I love Johnny Cash) perfectly, and God knows that. But the line is still there and we will be measured accordingly.
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Lasairfiona



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: I have to be somewhere? ::runs around frantically::

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And that line is not the letter of the law. Do you never shave? Are women allowed to wear pants?

There are two principles that Jesus taught as well as many statements on the level of judgement (blessed are the meek etc) but the letter of the law is not what a christian should stick to.

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Before God created Las he pondered on all the aspects a woman might have, he considered which ones would look good super-inflated and which ones to leave alone.
After much deliberation he gave her a giant comfort zone. - Michael
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WhupAs101



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 243

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jesus wrote:
Ok guys, this one is really simple,... don't be a dick, k?

Follower wrote:
But what about the guys that are already dicks, can we be dicks to them?

Jesus wrote:
No,...no, just, c'mon man, don't be a dick.

Others wrote:
Oooh. kk

Judas wrote:
lol
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Zonedout



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 236
Location: Los Angeles CA

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MellowFish wrote:
For ZonedOut:

Have you every tried consuming or smoking poison ivy? Why pick out a plant and say "why can't I eat this" when it might not be intended for consumption? The ecosystem is vast beyond the flora and fauna that humans eat and use, and all of it is neccesary to maintain a proper environment for life. That is why the world would eventually die off anyway without an armaggeon: we have broken the life support system of our planet, and to think that we can reproduce it's far reaching benefits through technology is foolish.

PS. Don't get the idea I am a tree hugger. I believe that the destruction of the ecosystem started with the origional sin, as did all bad things. When we fell from perfection, we drug the whole of creation with us.


So why do bible ethics prevent us from using weed recriationally or using hemp from the plant to make paper or clothing? If it is so natural and clearly intended to be used for fun and material usage why do we not use it for what god intended? So if technology isnt the right route to save us in this day and age? what is? Do you think that an overwhelming amount of politicians and congressman will smile when they see on a major US city subsequently turned in a ball of fire, since there might be a silver lining? the coming of our lord and savior? how would such an incident create a durable future for humanity? I'd argue that science is our best hope for the future...unless some benevolent god like Odin comes and changes things.
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MellowFish



Joined: 30 Sep 2006
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Location: The Train to Gloryland

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zonedout wrote:
So why do bible ethics prevent us from using weed recriationally or using hemp from the plant to make paper or clothing? If it is so natural and clearly intended to be used for fun and material usage why do we not use it for what god intended? So if technology isnt the right route to save us in this day and age? what is? Do you think that an overwhelming amount of politicians and congressman will smile when they see on a major US city subsequently turned in a ball of fire, since there might be a silver lining? the coming of our lord and savior? how would such an incident create a durable future for humanity? I think science is our best hope for the future...


There is nothing wrong with hemp. It is outawed becuase people can use it as an excuse to have cannabis plants for other uses. And people use weed to get high, not for mere entertainment.

Chocolate is my drug of choice: I really like to eat it. When i am depresed, a big bar of chocolate will cheer me up. This is a sin that I have to fight because I should be turing to god for comfort. When an object or action becomes so important that you feel you can't do x, y, or z without it, it has replaced god and the feeling must be dealt with. A person who always drinks a glass of wine with dinner for taste is enjoying part of god's creation. A person who always downs a glass of wine before making a speech is looking for confidence in a bunch of fermented grape juice, and needs to reevaluate the habit.

PS: this argument of course excludes funtionality: you cannot order delivery pizza without a phone or computer, but it doesn't mean you're addicted to any of the three.
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