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Why Socialism? Him's soap box.
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Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
i see you are unfamiliar with the "appeal to authority" fallacy
I don't think you know how logical fallacies work and/or did not read the post you are quoting. I think Albert Einstein's arguments stand on their own.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

of course you do. the entire purpose of this thread is an example of the fallacy of appeal to authority. you posted a big long argument about socialism written by Einstein with the expectation that people would read it and accept it because Einstein wrote it, even though Einstein's expertise was in physics, not politics.

CTrees is specifically calling you out for that and you're just missing the point, as tends to be the case.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys basically every president of the United States EVER followed some form of Christianity, therefore it must be true and valid and good for everyone. Yeeesh. Appeal to authority is valid SOMETIMES, see?
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Kilgore



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
of course you do. the entire purpose of this thread is an example of the fallacy of appeal to authority. you posted a big long argument about socialism written by Einstein with the expectation that people would read it and accept it because Einstein wrote it, even though Einstein's expertise was in physics, not politics.

CTrees is specifically calling you out for that and you're just missing the point, as tends to be the case.


This discussion is going to be hampered by the fact that I doubt many of us have read the actual essay Him posted, but the fact that it was written by Einstein does not, in an of itself make it an appeal to authority. I'm assuming it contains arguments (it's certainly long enough for at least one or two). If so, those arguments are valid or invalid on their own merits. The fact that the byline happens to be a guy we know to be very intelligent doesn't, in and of itself, make reasoning contained in the essay incorrect or fallacious, and thinking it does is dumb for reasons I hope I don't have to elaborate on. Unless every paragraph of the posted essay ends with, "and this is all true because I'm Albert motherfucking Einstein." Does every paragraph end that way? If so, I retract this paragraph.

Now, if Him had (mercifully) limited his first post to a short declaration, say, "Albert Einstein was a socialist, so clearly socialism is superior," or if he had responded to some criticism of the argument in Einstein's essay with "yeah, how many Nobel prizes have YOU won, asshole?" those would be appeals to authority. But if he did that, I missed it.

As far as Him's response to ctrees, I've gotta side with our resident pinko there too. Since ctrees didn't bother to respond to anything Einstein actually said (I assume he didn't read it, and, once again, I can hardly fault him there) the only conclusion one can draw from his post is that Einstein because he is a physicist clearly can't have anything valuable to say about citizenship or governance or the moral questions inherent in how we as a race organize our societies. Because, I dunno, he's too mathy or something, and we can assume on the strength of that that he never read a newspaper. Eggheads, amirite? This reasoning seems fallacious in its own right.

As for the intimation that we would be best off taking advice about how to organize our society from social (or, God help us, political) scientists, well, don't make me laugh.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm not talking about Einstein's essay, which, like apparently everyone else in this thread, i haven't bothered to read; i'm talking about Him's use of it in starting this thread, combined with his past history of communist propagandizing.

maybe i'm wrong and he just posted an essay about socialism that happened to be written by Einstein without intending it to be yet another piece of propaganda--but i kind of doubt it.
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Kilgore



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Propaganda is self-interested, which leads a canny reader to evaluate its claims with more skepticism, but that doesn't mean it's always incorrect or by definition inaccurate. If the IPCC spent a billion dollars putting up signs all over the US about how climate change is real, it would be propaganda, but it would also be true.

Propaganda is just like a potential appeal to authority. The provenance can lend or subtract credibility to the claims, but they ultimately rise or fall on their own merits.
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Last edited by Kilgore on Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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kame



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: Alba Nuadh

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
i'm not talking about Einstein's essay, which, like apparently everyone else in this thread, i haven't bothered to read; i'm talking about Him's use of it in starting this thread, combined with his past history of communist propagandizing.

maybe i'm wrong and he just posted an essay about socialism that happened to be written by Einstein without intending it to be yet another piece of propaganda--but i kind of doubt it.


Poison the well much?

Gawd the irony is too delicious.
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kame wrote:
Poison the well much?


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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the first line of the essay wrote:
Is it advisable for one who is not an expert on economic and social issues to express views on the subject of socialism? I believe for a number of reasons that it is.


APPEAL TO AUTHORITY

ALSO BUTTS


EINSTEIN SPENT MUCH TIME THINKING ABOUT THEM
YOU KNOW THIS TO BE TRUE
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
EINSTEIN SPENT MUCH TIME THINKING ABOUT THEM
YOU KNOW THIS TO BE TRUE

He was makin' out like Charlie Sheen.
He was a gen-i-us.
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Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: On edge

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kilgore wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
of course you do. the entire purpose of this thread is an example of the fallacy of appeal to authority. you posted a big long argument about socialism written by Einstein with the expectation that people would read it and accept it because Einstein wrote it, even though Einstein's expertise was in physics, not politics.

CTrees is specifically calling you out for that and you're just missing the point, as tends to be the case.


This discussion is going to be hampered by the fact that I doubt many of us have read the actual essay Him posted, but the fact that it was written by Einstein does not, in an of itself make it an appeal to authority. I'm assuming it contains arguments (it's certainly long enough for at least one or two). If so, those arguments are valid or invalid on their own merits. The fact that the byline happens to be a guy we know to be very intelligent doesn't, in and of itself, make reasoning contained in the essay incorrect or fallacious, and thinking it does is dumb for reasons I hope I don't have to elaborate on. Unless every paragraph of the posted essay ends with, "and this is all true because I'm Albert motherfucking Einstein." Does every paragraph end that way? If so, I retract this paragraph.

Now, if Him had (mercifully) limited his first post to a short declaration, say, "Albert Einstein was a socialist, so clearly socialism is superior," or if he had responded to some criticism of the argument in Einstein's essay with "yeah, how many Nobel prizes have YOU won, asshole?" those would be appeals to authority. But if he did that, I missed it.

As far as Him's response to ctrees, I've gotta side with our resident pinko there too. Since ctrees didn't bother to respond to anything Einstein actually said (I assume he didn't read it, and, once again, I can hardly fault him there) the only conclusion one can draw from his post is that Einstein because he is a physicist clearly can't have anything valuable to say about citizenship or governance or the moral questions inherent in how we as a race organize our societies. Because, I dunno, he's too mathy or something, and we can assume on the strength of that that he never read a newspaper. Eggheads, amirite? This reasoning seems fallacious in its own right.

As for the intimation that we would be best off taking advice about how to organize our society from social (or, God help us, political) scientists, well, don't make me laugh.

Actually if you read the part that starts with
Albert Einstein wrote:
Is it advisable for one who is not an expert on economic and social issues to express views on the subject of socialism? I believe for a number of reasons that it is.

and ends with
Quote:
For these reasons, we should be on our guard not to overestimate science and scientific methods when it is a question of human problems; and we should not assume that experts are the only ones who have a right to express themselves on questions affecting the organization of society.


The article actually addresses that issue directly. So Shadowcell please tell me more about logical fallacies. You seem to be quite familiar with them.
ShadowCell wrote:
of course you do. the entire purpose of this thread is an example of the fallacy of appeal to authority. you posted a big long argument about socialism written by Einstein with the expectation that people would read it and accept it because Einstein wrote it, even though Einstein's expertise was in physics, not politics.
Oh no! You have foiled my evil plan! And here I thought I could convince the entire forum populace of the validity of socialism simply by attaching Albert Einsteins name to an article arguing for socialism. But my old nemisis ShadowCell has outsmarted me again, by not reading the seditious article! I shall return to my supervillain cave and plot new and even more devious plans!
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Last edited by Him on Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Him



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think what I like most about the article, and what he spends most time on, is the argument against the classical "but it's against human nature!". Also according to the FBI Einstein was a very dangerous communist agitator and they did try to have him deported.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno about this socialism stuff, I mean, capitalism gives people pretty good motivation to do stupid things, like actuarial duties for an insurance company, rather than cool things like biochemical research for less pay.

WHERE WOULD WE BE WITHOUT MONEY GETTING SMART PEOPLE TO DO STUPID THINGS THAT THEY DON'T PARTICULARLY ENJOY AND THAT DON'T REALLY BENEFIT SOCIETY AS A WHOLE? THINK.

/complaining about my career choices
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Him



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
I dunno about this socialism stuff, I mean, capitalism gives people pretty good motivation to do stupid things, like actuarial duties for an insurance company, rather than cool things like biochemical research for less pay.

WHERE WOULD WE BE WITHOUT MONEY GETTING SMART PEOPLE TO DO STUPID THINGS THAT THEY DON'T PARTICULARLY ENJOY AND THAT DON'T REALLY BENEFIT SOCIETY AS A WHOLE? THINK.

/complaining about my career choices
oh science geek eh? Sorry, you're not allowed to have a political opinion, Just ask Ctrees.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about a mathematician with an economic opinion?
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