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Feminism because why not make a thread for it?
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Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest wrote:
You're right, Snorri, that is an interesting article.

Kim: Look, I don't agree with Daniel Tosh, but a joke is a joke. Mind you, it wasn't a funny joke and I didn't laugh. Comedians, however, make jokes about horrible things: murder, suicide, genocide, abortion, dead babies, disorders, and yes, even rape. We shouldn't make jokes about rape, well fine, but what about those other, equally horrible things? Surely if you exclude one, you must exclude them all? And to say that laughing at a rape joke (even if it's done subconsciously) makes one a supporter of rape, or at least less in opposition of rapists, is pretty damn asinine. (Like saying that laughing at a joke about 9/11 makes one a supporter of 9/11, or less in opposition of suicide bombers.) Anyway, Kilgore and Halen has covered this subject better than I have and I'm just making second-hand comments. Carry on.

See even if this was true, which it isn't, that wouldn't be an argument in and of itself. Furthermore Kilgore and Halen were wrong. And the article kind of addresses why, but I've had this merry-go-round with you enough times to realize that on the off chance that you actually read anything linked it might as well have been posted in greek, because you don't get it. And experience tells me you won't, so I am probably wasting my time even writing this to you, but uh try to read the article maybe? It's about why rape jokes are a problem. As the title suggests. If you already did, please disregard that and please refrain from responding. Okay so I have nothing better to do: I personally don't think rape jokes are always off-limits, that doesn't mean it's unproblematic. Just as jokes about the holocaust aren't always off limits, but if you're going "How do you fit 12 jews into a Volkswagen? 2 in the front 2 in the back and the rest in the ashtray" and someone with relatives who died in the holocaust speaks out against you, that's *not* just a problem of you being a shit comedian.
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Guest



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did read it, I just didn't agree with its conclusion.

But you misread the article that Snorri linked, and maybe I misread the article you linked, so maybe we both ought to learn to read, eh? Whatever.

Remember Anita Sarkeesian? She's going to make a series about women tropes in video games, but it seems she doesn't make the research about the games she plays. Or maybe she just doesn't play them enough? Either way, as a sceptic this raises red flags if her content is truly going to push the envelope or if it's going to be comprised of, well, that. Personally I think that instead of making a video series, she should turn that money around and make a game with the appropriate female representations. It wouldn't be a whopper of a game, obviously, you'd need double the money for that, but it'd be a start. But that's me.
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Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: On edge

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest wrote:
I did read it, I just didn't agree with its conclusion.

But you misread the article that Snorri linked, and maybe I misread the article you linked, so maybe we both ought to learn to read, eh? Whatever.

Remember Anita Sarkeesian? She's going to make a series about women tropes in video games, but it seems she doesn't make the research about the games she plays. Or maybe she just doesn't play them enough? Either way, as a sceptic this raises red flags if her content is truly going to push the envelope or if it's going to be comprised of, well, that. Personally I think that instead of making a video series, she should turn that money around and make a game with the appropriate female representations. It wouldn't be a whopper of a game, obviously, you'd need double the money for that, but it'd be a start. But that's me.

Actually I didn't, I just think the main responsibility lies with the newspapers that distort scientific reports not with the feminist blogosphere that reacts to the distortions as if genuine. Not that going back to source material isn't a good idea, but some people are under the mistaken assumption that the mainstream media can make accurate appraisals of science article's, especially those in any way related to gender relations.

Okay, the article made an argument. Can you tell me which?

Aren't you precious?
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Ten Thousand Things



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
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Location: Glorious City of Luna Llena (no refunds)

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest wrote:
Remember Anita Sarkeesian? She's going to make a series about women tropes in video games, but it seems she doesn't make the research about the games she plays.


I assume that there are other games she looks at as well, but those really aren't the examples I'd look to when showing negative tropes about women in games. Though maybe the point is to not go for the easy ones?

(Finally, something relevant of which I have extensive knowledge!)
Let's all talk about womens in the vidjagaemz.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ten Thousand Things wrote:
(Finally, something relevant of which I have extensive knowledge!)
Let's all talk about womens in the vidjagaemz.


I am CONSTANTLY disappointed with clothing options. Like, yes. I love playing dress up. Fuck anyone who judges me for that shit because its FUN. Also I'm a little drunk right now. Um.

Anyway, its just these fucking outfits! They're either ugly as sin or really really slutty or both. Like, slutty is fine -as an option- but what if I DON'T want my avatar's boobs hanging out when I kick the shit out of demons or whatever? Then my option is like, hideous. Of course, it depends on the game. Some games are heavy on the ugly and some are heavy on the revealing... but seeeeeriously.

Is it so damn hard to find some happy mediums?
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
Guest wrote:
I did read it, I just didn't agree with its conclusion.

But you misread the article that Snorri linked, and maybe I misread the article you linked, so maybe we both ought to learn to read, eh? Whatever.

Remember Anita Sarkeesian? She's going to make a series about women tropes in video games, but it seems she doesn't make the research about the games she plays. Or maybe she just doesn't play them enough? Either way, as a sceptic this raises red flags if her content is truly going to push the envelope or if it's going to be comprised of, well, that. Personally I think that instead of making a video series, she should turn that money around and make a game with the appropriate female representations. It wouldn't be a whopper of a game, obviously, you'd need double the money for that, but it'd be a start. But that's me.

Actually I didn't, I just think the main responsibility lies with the newspapers that distort scientific reports not with the feminist blogosphere that reacts to the distortions as if genuine. Not that going back to source material isn't a good idea, but some people are under the mistaken assumption that the mainstream media can make accurate appraisals of science article's, especially those in any way related to gender relations.

Okay, the article made an argument. Can you tell me which?

Aren't you precious?


Yo I'm down with blaming newspapers for being bad at science more than blogs. After all they got the money and that means that they should be better.

But any blog that just unthinkingly copies whatever a newspaper says to rail against it is fucking so hard part of the problem. Fuck that shit. I don't even get fucking paid nor have an agenda and I fucking bothered to read the study. This is not an issue of politics, this is an issue of not being a goddamn fuckface.
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Guest



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ten Thousand Things wrote:
I assume that there are other games she looks at as well, but those really aren't the examples I'd look to when showing negative tropes about women in games. Though maybe the point is to not go for the easy ones?

She does, but it doesn't speak to her integrity when she (at times) doesn't even do the research about the games she's criticising. She also made a scathing review of Bayonetta but the problem is she hadn't actually played it. With $160K at her disposal, with that kind of sloppy journalism, it's tough not to be awfully sceptical to her approach to the topic(s) at hand.

I'm down with talking females in videogames. We talked about the treatment Lara Croft has received in the new Tomb Raider earlier in the thread and how it's not being strong in the face of diversity and finding her own way in the middle of nowhere that's the turning point to make her as we know and love, but rape that's the catalyst. Attempted rape. I think CD really dropped the ball on that one. Seriously. Why rape?

And I don't know, hasn't developers been working on improving the poor choice of clothing for women and for men? Bethesda for one. Their design is more practical than exploitative. Even Soul Calibur 5, which features Ivy Valentine, clammered down on the sex appeal. An extensive review of it can be found here. (Ignore the first 20 seconds.) Could be a trend to follow, maybe? Who knows.
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Ten Thousand Things



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
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Location: Glorious City of Luna Llena (no refunds)

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Anyway, its just these fucking outfits! They're either ugly as sin or really really slutty or both. Like, slutty is fine -as an option- but what if I DON'T want my avatar's boobs hanging out when I kick the shit out of demons or whatever? Then my option is like, hideous. Of course, it depends on the game. Some games are heavy on the ugly and some are heavy on the revealing... but seeeeeriously.

Is it so damn hard to find some happy mediums?


There are definitely games (League of Legends being a recent example that comes to mind) where I say to myself I would be 100% ok with this character design... if she was wearing pants. There comes a point where designs just become gratuitous fanservice. Occasionally there are designs I see which I feel find a decent mix of sexy and sensible (atleast in my opinion) but they don't get the same level of attention as the blatant sex-objects.

Guest wrote:
I'm down with talking females in videogames. We talked about the treatment Lara Croft has received in the new Tomb Raider earlier in the thread and how it's not being strong in the face of diversity and finding her own way in the middle of nowhere that's the turning point to make her as we know and love, but rape that's the catalyst. Attempted rape. I think CD really dropped the ball on that one. Seriously. Why rape?


I can only assume that the developers thought to include rape because it's an easy plot hook. There's no ambiguity in it and you don't really need to do much more to make the player hate the villain than making them a rapist. The developers also, I believe, wanted to make this version of Lara Croft more vulnerable in contrast to her older persona, and few things make one more so than a rape victim. It's an emotional ploy, a cheap trick in a way, just like with violence against children. As evidenced, these things can backfire very easily.
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Ten Thousand Things



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the more optimistic side of things, I've noticed that the titular character in the Legend of Zelda games is more often than not being less of a damsel in distress. Ever since Wind Waker she's had larger roles and even helps fight the final boss in multiple games. Hell, back in Ocarina of Time she did shit as Sheik before eventually being captured.

There are exceptions (some person favorites come to mind: Chris Lightfellow and Kyojiro Kagenuma from Suikoden III and Way of the Samurai 2 respectively) but there is an unhealthy amount of negative and/or oversexualized representations of women in videogames.
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While the whole attempted rape thing in Tomb Raider seems like it's an easy thing to jump to, in a way it makes a lot of sense to go with something like that on an island, knowing what we know about guys tendencies. I think I was more upset with the way the company started backpeddling and claiming no one gets sexually assaulted when a few people got upset about it. It's like, if you're going to include something that strong, at least stick by it. Definitely don't marginalize the even by saying that's not sexual assault. Bad PR.

But it does work for making her not look like a damsel in distress. She's handcuffed at the time and still manages to get the upper hand and kills someone for the first time ever. We'll see when the actual game comes out, but for a attempted rape in a video game, they seem to have handled it well in game...if only their PR department weren't idiots. Yes let's tell people things like that don't count as sexual assault. Ugh.


I always liked Zelda, because she wasn't just getting kidnapped like Peach. Like you said, even back in the day, she was there fighting as Sheik for forever. And she does actually try and help in other ways.


A lot of Final Fantasy girls have been renowned for being well rounded personalities, even with the crazy clothes. So many of the women in those games have actually felt "real", especially since FF7 onward.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
(Roe v. Wade was not a feminist issue, it was a human rights issue, championed by plenty -- both men and women -- and if I'm not mistaken authored by a man. Yes.)


Roe v. Wade is both a feminist issue and a human rights issue. Please do not pretend for a second that these are excluding categories, because it would mean you don't understand feminism pretty much at all. Moreover, it being authored by a man is essentially irrelevant to whether it is 'one or the other' of these overlapping issue conditions.
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Yinello



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ten Thousand Things wrote:
Let's all talk about womens in the vidjagaemz.


When I was playing World of Warcraft one of the things that really bothered me was how little GOOD female leaders there were. There was Jaina who only served as a compass to Arthas and was ditched after, Sylvanas was just there to look hot for the necrophiles and sometimes did something cool (sometimes), and for the rest... Nothing? Even Tyrande, who in Warcraft 3 was pretty awesome, did NOTHING and just sat there in her temple while her husband went out to fight.

Unless you were in Night Elf territory, all armies were pretty much male. It's a freaking fantasy world and the women don't fight? What is this?

In Guild Wars 2 there are plenty of female leaders and strong female characters, and that makes me happy. Guess what game I'll be playing.

Samsally already touched up on the clothing. xD
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Halen



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm really confused. Normally if Guest sides with you, you know you're wrong. But if Him sides against you, you know you're right. But I've got Guest siding with me (misrepresenting what I said), and Him siding against me (also misrepresenting what I said). Am I right, wrong, or both? I don't even know any more!

No wait I do, I'm always right. I forgot.

By the way, I was today able to correctly accuse someone of being a misandrist. Thanks, this thread!
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Guest



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Quote:
(Roe v. Wade was not a feminist issue, it was a human rights issue, championed by plenty -- both men and women -- and if I'm not mistaken authored by a man. Yes.)


Roe v. Wade is both a feminist issue and a human rights issue. Please do not pretend for a second that these are excluding categories, because it would mean you don't understand feminism pretty much at all. Moreover, it being authored by a man is essentially irrelevant to whether it is 'one or the other' of these overlapping issue conditions.

Fine. It was both a human rights issue and a feminist issue. You got me, Sam. But answer me this: Is pro-choice a feminist issue or a human rights issue? Human rights issue in my opinion, but maybe the women pro-life advocates see it differently? No, it being authored by a man may not have anything to do with it, but she implied feminists had everything to do with the decision - except Norma McCorvey (Roe) wasn't a feminist and neither was Justice Henry Blackmun. However, you're right. Instead of foaming at the mouth, inserting feminist causes into whatever she felt appropriate, she may have had a point. I digress.

Halen wrote:
But I've got Guest siding with me (misrepresenting what I said), and Him siding against me (also misrepresenting what I said). Am I right, wrong, or both? I don't even know any more!

Cheers, Steve. Thanks. When did I misrepresent you again?
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Halen



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I literally said nothing about whether humour should cover taboo subjects. But you crack on, man.
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