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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 1168
Location: Behind my Cintiq

PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't going to post on this at all anymore, but I loved Heretical Rants image and wanted to say so.

But I can't help it. I'm going to go ahead and reply to Crayven.
crayven wrote:
Adyon wrote:
First off the difference is not that it's a men's group, but that they're complaining about discrimination towards themselves, while still holding the position of power. They OFTEN pervert information to make men look like victims, and anyone who has even looked around the real world knows that men hold most of the power. It's just how the world currently works. Even if you argue women have gained equality, only in those people's mind would they argue that men are being denied their base desires of power and control by not being allowed to dominate others freely. If you think it's laughable women find themselves victims, shouldn't it be even more so that men find themselves helpless and powerless at the control women exude in their lives and that they need more rights given to them in order to not feel oppressed?


I took the liberty of highlighting plain bullshit in your post. You're welcome.


Adyon wrote:
If you think it's laughable women find themselves victims, shouldn't it be even more so that men find themselves helpless and powerless at the control women exude in their lives and that they need more rights given to them in order to not feel oppressed?

I took the liberty of quoting the POINT of what I said. So, you're DEFENDING a group that says men are oppressed. I'm saying it's ridiculous that you think it's stupid women might still find themselves still being treated as lesser in some situations, and at the same time you defend a group who's main purpose has been to complain guys are victims. It's the lack of privilege they used to have that's making them feel that way. The few valid points they do complain about are the same thing feminists already complain about, like men's rights with their children and the notion that men can't be nurturers. That type of logic is what makes people think women are superior, because they can be both professionals AND nurturers. The MRA blames feminists for that kind of thinking though, and it makes no sense. They think feminists have caused the problems instead of the sexist idea that women are better that comes with negative things for the woman at the same time. ...Let me say it simple and clearly. The idea that women are better than men or that men are inherently bad is sexist. It's something feminists think shouldn't be.


crayven wrote:
Check college statistics, school drop-outs and such, and see who is being "not encouraged" ( we seem to have camouflaged the word discrimination into "not encourage" now...laughable really ) to pursuit education?
College curriculum is also more multi-task, theory oriented not practical

First off, we're not saying they don't GO to college. We said they're not encouraged to go into the highest paid fields. Like my example about a guy being told "You should be a doctor" as opposed to telling the girl in that situation "You could be a doctor or a nurse". It's the opt out.

And now I'll drop that and address your whole statistics of less men in college and that they don't make as good of grades. Yeah they're 100% correct. There's a good news article on it at the NY Times from like 2006 here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/education/09college.html?pagewanted=all

But you say it's choice, and yeah. It's choice that causes men not to do as well in this case. I was big at socializing in college. You know what 60% of the men wanted to do? Party and get drunk. The parties had the same 80% to 20% men to women ratio. It was ALWAYS the same women. The majority of girls didn't care about partying and drinking. Heck, a lot of them know that if they did, the only reason that guys would care about them being there would be to try and hit on them constantly and hopefully bed them. So, women put a lot more respect behind effort, and they work harder to achieve their goals. This is also where feminist ideals are the most prevalent. When they get in college, many girls encourage each other, knowing that they need to work hard, and avoid bad situations. Most of those girls I saw at parties ended up dropping out of school. An exceptionally large percent did than the guys at the parties did. I'm not BASHING men on their choices despite all this. But groups like the MRA use the education statistics to complain women have it easier than men. Never mind that like in that article, men are beating women in things while in grade school tests. They don't see that it might be men's choices getting women more jobs.

Yes, women are coming out with more education, and they're getting better jobs occasionally because of that, but they're still discriminated on as women by employers who are older and still hold those sexist thoughts still. Women are working harder to be on equal ground with men. Sure feminism wants to change that, but it's more about making people aware of it. Especially other women, like in college where it's so prevalent. They're helping their peers to know they have to work extra hard if they want to succeed. We'll probably see a lot of change as the people in college now are part of the generation that's gotten more rid of that than before, so sexism will probably continue to change, and more and more women WILL soon be in power. But to argue that their can't be discrimination BECAUSE women are in power, despite that being because they're working harder is...just wrong.

I at one time while starting out as an artist was jealous of a particular female colorists I really liked, because it seemed like everything came so easily to her. Then I talked to her and realized how much more time she put into it than me, when I was playing games with my friends. It's the same with women in the business world. It feels to you like they're not being discriminated against by bosses to you, of what you see on the surface, but they have worked their butts off and have a HUGE portfolio because of it besides just the ability to do similar work. Discrimination is not what it once was, but it's still there. We're not passing laws against it. We're just raising awareness, even if its in other women to know what they face. We're not going to change the world arguing on a forum anyway. Wink
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MerchManDan



Joined: 20 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crayven wrote:
Men hold most of the power - this one is -AGAIN - dependent on...say it with me..CHOICE.
Women are not denied access to politics, they just HATE in a large overwhelmingly large majority !
Say it with me...they..hate...politics. ok? Ok.
Not OK, because it's blatantly false. Also, since when do you speak for all women?
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almost a shame to waste dennis' talent on him.
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Ten Thousand Things



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm honestly baffled that anyone would argue with crayven. With statements like those he's so obviously a troll it's laughable.
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah. I think I'm a glutten. I do like to debate, even if my opponent is just railing lunatic that spouts whatever he wants like it makes sense and declares himself the winner. It's like how he linked articles in the past to "prove" him right, and several times the articles didn't even have the information he said they did, but instead contradicted him. xD

And I didn't even think to dignify what MerchManDan quoted with a response, as it's just so sadly ridiculous that he'd say that. You were right there. He DOES like to speak for other people. Not only does he speak for women, he apparently even speaks for feminists and TELLS them what they believe.
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MerchManDan



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's true, I should just let his preposterous statements speak for themselves. What can I say? Maybe I'm a glutton for punishment too.
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crayven



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adyon wrote:
Yeah. I think I'm a glutten. I do like to debate, even if my opponent is just railing lunatic that spouts whatever he wants like it makes sense and declares himself the winner. It's like how he linked articles in the past to "prove" him right, and several times the articles didn't even have the information he said they did, but instead contradicted him. xD


You mean like ShadowCell?

Ten Thousand Things wrote:
I'm honestly baffled that anyone would argue with crayven. With statements like those he's so obviously a troll it's laughable.

Brilliant argument, i am so defeated now..*slow clap*

MerchManDan wrote:
crayven wrote:
Men hold most of the power - this one is -AGAIN - dependent on...say it with me..CHOICE.
Women are not denied access to politics, they just HATE in a large overwhelmingly large majority !
Say it with me...they..hate...politics. ok? Ok.
Not OK, because it's blatantly false. Also, since when do you speak for all women?

If they wouldn't hate politics there would be more of them IN politics - doh!


Adyon wrote:
I wasn't going to post on this at all anymore, but I loved Heretical Rants image and wanted to say so.

But I can't help it. I'm going to go ahead and reply to Crayven.
crayven wrote:
Adyon wrote:
First off the difference is not that it's a men's group, but that they're complaining about discrimination towards themselves, while still holding the position of power. They OFTEN pervert information to make men look like victims, and anyone who has even looked around the real world knows that men hold most of the power. It's just how the world currently works. Even if you argue women have gained equality, only in those people's mind would they argue that men are being denied their base desires of power and control by not being allowed to dominate others freely. If you think it's laughable women find themselves victims, shouldn't it be even more so that men find themselves helpless and powerless at the control women exude in their lives and that they need more rights given to them in order to not feel oppressed?


I took the liberty of highlighting plain bullshit in your post. You're welcome.


Adyon wrote:
If you think it's laughable women find themselves victims, shouldn't it be even more so that men find themselves helpless and powerless at the control women exude in their lives and that they need more rights given to them in order to not feel oppressed?


Most MRAs preach avoiding women as gender altogether to avoid all this "evil discrimination". I don't think it is a solution moreso than feminists advocating for male castration or some other shit.
Adyon wrote:

I took the liberty of quoting the POINT of what I said. So, you're DEFENDING a group that says men are oppressed. I'm saying it's ridiculous that you think it's stupid women might still find themselves still being treated as lesser in some situations, and at the same time you defend a group who's main purpose has been to complain guys are victims. It's the lack of privilege they used to have that's making them feel that way.

The privilege to serve in the army and DIE?
The privilege of working while a woman is at home?
WHAT.."privilege" seriously? And we're talking about the US now because this idiocy hasn't caught up in Europe too much ( thankfully, otherwise the world would have gone insane ).
Sitting on you butt at home while someone else pampers you and cares for you makes the worker "privileged" ?
I am privileged if i toil for someone else?



Adyon wrote:

The few valid points they do complain about are the same thing feminists already complain about, like men's rights with their children and the notion that men can't be nurturers. That type of logic is what makes people think women are superior, because they can be both professionals AND nurturers. The MRA blames feminists for that kind of thinking though, and it makes no sense. They think feminists have caused the problems instead of the sexist idea that women are better that comes with negative things for the woman at the same time. ...Let me say it simple and clearly. The idea that women are better than men or that men are inherently bad is sexist. It's something feminists think shouldn't be.

The type of logic that makes women superior is an idiot's logic ( or a feminist, which is pretty much the same thing )
Men CAN be both aswell - guess what though? - Most don't want to. Should they CHANGE so feminists be all happy about it? FUCK NO!
You know why?
Because that wouldn't be fucking FREEDOM OF CHOICE.

Feminists HAVE caused the problems.
The mantra is that men are inherently bad - simple. Check feminist blogs, forums see the raging hate and loathing for the male gender.I bet you i can do a 5 second search and IMMEDIATLY stumble upon a hate blog of such kind.
And they call themselves feminists.
YOU are not a feminist, not by how the majority of feminists on the internet behaves.


Adyon wrote:

crayven wrote:
Check college statistics, school drop-outs and such, and see who is being "not encouraged" ( we seem to have camouflaged the word discrimination into "not encourage" now...laughable really ) to pursuit education?
College curriculum is also more multi-task, theory oriented not practical

First off, we're not saying they don't GO to college. We said they're not encouraged to go into the highest paid fields. Like my example about a guy being told "You should be a doctor" as opposed to telling the girl in that situation "You could be a doctor or a nurse". It's the opt out.

And now I'll drop that and address your whole statistics of less men in college and that they don't make as good of grades. Yeah they're 100% correct. There's a good news article on it at the NY Times from like 2006 here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/education/09college.html?pagewanted=all

But you say it's choice, and yeah. It's choice that causes men not to do as well in this case. I was big at socializing in college. You know what 60% of the men wanted to do? Party and get drunk. The parties had the same 80% to 20% men to women ratio. It was ALWAYS the same women. The majority of girls didn't care about partying and drinking. Heck, a lot of them know that if they did, the only reason that guys would care about them being there would be to try and hit on them constantly and hopefully bed them. So, women put a lot more respect behind effort, and they work harder to achieve their goals. This is also where feminist ideals are the most prevalent. When they get in college, many girls encourage each other, knowing that they need to work hard, and avoid bad situations. Most of those girls I saw at parties ended up dropping out of school. An exceptionally large percent did than the guys at the parties did. I'm not BASHING men on their choices despite all this. But groups like the MRA use the education statistics to complain women have it easier than men. Never mind that like in that article, men are beating women in things while in grade school tests. They don't see that it might be men's choices getting women more jobs.

Yes, women are coming out with more education, and they're getting better jobs occasionally because of that, but they're still discriminated on as women by employers who are older and still hold those sexist thoughts still. Women are working harder to be on equal ground with men. Sure feminism wants to change that, but it's more about making people aware of it. Especially other women, like in college where it's so prevalent. They're helping their peers to know they have to work extra hard if they want to succeed. We'll probably see a lot of change as the people in college now are part of the generation that's gotten more rid of that than before, so sexism will probably continue to change, and more and more women WILL soon be in power. But to argue that their can't be discrimination BECAUSE women are in power, despite that being because they're working harder is...just wrong.

I at one time while starting out as an artist was jealous of a particular female colorists I really liked, because it seemed like everything came so easily to her. Then I talked to her and realized how much more time she put into it than me, when I was playing games with my friends. It's the same with women in the business world. It feels to you like they're not being discriminated against by bosses to you, of what you see on the surface, but they have worked their butts off and have a HUGE portfolio because of it besides just the ability to do similar work. Discrimination is not what it once was, but it's still there. We're not passing laws against it. We're just raising awareness, even if its in other women to know what they face. We're not going to change the world arguing on a forum anyway. Wink

So now it is a choice...but when women are at disadvantage it is discrimination?

"Women are working harder to be on equal ground with men" - BULL-SHIT
Women work LESS then men and less hazardous jobs - that's why they are PAID LESS.

"Sure feminism wants to change that, but it's more about making people aware of it."
That's why they are voraciously fighting to pass LAWS binding employers to quotas and other such intrusive procedures?
Also on the wage gap:http://www.thenorthernlight.org/2011/02/22/modern-feminism-distorts-truth-on-gender-wage-gap/
Can we please end with this wage gap idiocy it has been debunked time and time again. So please, stop...just stop. It's not even funny anymore.

I find it curious that you americans hate communism so much but on the other hand these feminists want a communist type of equality.
Equality of reward for different effort.
Not equality of chance.


Last edited by crayven on Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sam the Eagle



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
yeah, i keep hoping some of our other european types will pop in and give us some ground truth. because crayven seems a bit given to sweeping generalizations that are only loosely connected to reality.


You have but to ask:

- On an average, for EU member countries, women in EU are paid 16.4% less then men for the same kind of job.
- Country by country this range from 4.4% to 27.3%.

From the pdf file:
Quote:
The gender pay gap is more pronounced in the five sectors providing most female employment, where it is as high as 24 %.


We're talking low to mid rank jobs here.

If education level is taken into account, it varies from EU member to EU member:

Quote:
There is generally a positive correlation between the pay gap and age although the increase is not constant in all countries. The increase in the pay gap with age is due to the fact that age reflects professional experience and career development.
The observation is less clearcut with regard to the level of education. In a number of countries (such as the Czech Republic, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Slovakia, Sweden and the United Kingdom) the correlation is positive: the
pay gap is wider among the highest qualified. Such a result might be explained by school choices, career paths and individual pay negotiations differing between women and men, by career breaks being taken more frequently by women, by the professional segregation suffered
by women, etc.
In other countries such as Belgium, Cyprus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Romania, the opposite is true: the pay gap is narrower among the more educated.


Add social laws differs a lot as far as child birth vacations are concerned. Some countries guarantee that the woman will have the same, or an equivalent position, when she'll come back to work; others don't care as much. Same goes for abortion rights and pills. This lead to other issues like general birthrate by countries which impact national' workforce, immigration and on.

Main link: Gender pay gap in EU

More important: Hard Data

Dry reading, but those are as hard facts as one can get.

As for EU being a feminist dreamland...heh.
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crayven



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing sits very wrong with my logic and this so called "gap".
I am an employer, my job is to make MONEY, lots of it and preferably pay you nothing.
So...why wouldn't i just hire ONLY women if they are paid so little?
I get more profit, no? Basic capitalism at work.

Only it's not so...why?

"In other countries such as Belgium, Cyprus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Romania, the opposite is true: the pay gap is narrower among the more educated." - well that explains why i don't have any anecdotal evidence to support this 'wage-gap' claim at least.
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crayven wrote:
You mean like ShadowCell?

I'm not going to defend ShadowCell just because we're on the same side. He jumps to a lot of conclusions and throws insults. You still make him look tame by comparison.

crayven wrote:
So now it is a choice...but when women are at disadvantage it is discrimination?

No, that's not it at all. Even when it was women, it was never NOT choice. Choice is the factor that impacts the wage gap. But it had to do with what society does to influence choices. But I'm not bothering to explain anymore. You don't get it. You won't get it. I don't care.

crayven wrote:
"Women are working harder to be on equal ground with men" - BULL-SHIT
Women work LESS then men and less hazardous jobs - that's why they are PAID LESS.

Yeah go ahead and think that. See if your brain can register why it makes no sense that you were complaining more women were in college than men, yet think women work less hard than men. And hazardous jobs have very little to do with what we're talking here. 90% of them are peon work that we'd be comparing to waitress for women, with only a select few exceptions. It's got nothing to do with hard working college students trying for big careers and definitely nothing about what I was actually saying, which was about career-minded folks trying to get into their career. Just read that article. It talks about it nicely.

crayven wrote:
One thing sits very wrong with my logic and this so called "gap".
I am an employer, my job is to make MONEY, lots of it and preferably pay you nothing.
So...why wouldn't i just hire ONLY women if they are paid so little?
I get more profit, no? Basic capitalism at work.

Because we've explained it IS choice of working environment, but it's a choice influenced by people. And here's also where your logic runs out and I think this is WAY over your head. You can't pay someone less if THERE'S no one else than that type of person. The idea is not that they CAN pay women less. It's who they choose to promote, to give raises too. If you have all women, you still will have to make decisions and someone will still get promoted. Women aren't able to straight be payed less. It's if they can't get the positions. And a lot of time it comes down to things like dudes that hang out with their bosses. They like to promote that way. It's like men's old adage "Bros before hoes." Also there's things like older generations not respecting women as much, or the fact they just think, "She could get pregnant, so I don't want her in a position of power".
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crayven



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe we should have gender separated companies - that way raises, wages and everything else would fair WITHING each company and women and men could jump from one to another.
Seems mixing creates insane amounts of petty frustrations.
It never occurs to the one NOT promoted that, hey, maybe you SUCK at your job and don't DESERVE to be promoted. No, there's always a conspiracy.
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Sam the Eagle



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crayven wrote:
One thing sits very wrong with my logic and this so called "gap".
I am an employer, my job is to make MONEY, lots of it and preferably pay you nothing.
So...why wouldn't i just hire ONLY women if they are paid so little?
I get more profit, no? Basic capitalism at work.

Only it's not so...why?

"In other countries such as Belgium, Cyprus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Romania, the opposite is true: the pay gap is narrower among the more educated." - well that explains why i don't have any anecdotal evidence to support this 'wage-gap' claim at least.


That's an easy one to explain: Because Capitalism doesn't run free within the EU, Dickens and Zola had their way with books, various revolutions; the works. And even within the framework you have to abide to, there is still a gap.

Either those figures are false or your logic is based on false premises. If you're going to deny those figures, feel free to quote yours so we can make up our own mind. But unless you do, let's stick using those as fact.

---

I knew you'd love that little quote, and kind on planted it on purpose. You picked the phrase that qsuited you, but ignored the rest. Line, hook and sinker...

Just quote it properly, it only state that education is less a problem in Belgium. It doesn't deny gap increases with age and it doesn't say said gap doesn't exist in the first place, nor it says that low paid jobs are ok in Belgium; not everyone is an engineer or eye surgeon, e.g., in Belgium last I know. Your own experience is only valid in within the few people you know, not the whole of Belgium; that's a logical fallacy.
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well that's why you're clueless Crayven. Yes, women work harder in college, only to start SLACKING OFF the second they get to an actual job? Really? That's your logic? I hope you get the amount of sarcasm I use with you. I realize now that half of it might not even come through to you.

Also Sam the Eagle pretty much owned you.
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MerchManDan



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MerchManDan wrote:
I should just let his preposterous statements speak for themselves.
crayven wrote:
If they wouldn't hate politics there would be more of them IN politics - doh!


...yeah.
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Halen



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe if there were more women IN Sinfest, there'd be more women here right now ARGUING about sinfest.

...

no wait.
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ktern



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crayven, get your wife to register for the forums right now
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