welcome to the fest
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The Ever-Evolving list of Republican Presidential Candidates
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... , 41, 42, 43  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  

so who's it going to be, for reals.
Newt Gingrich
2%
 2%  [ 1 ]
Mitt Romney
42%
 42%  [ 17 ]
Mitch Daniels
10%
 10%  [ 4 ]
Ron Paul
17%
 17%  [ 7 ]
Tim Pawlenty
10%
 10%  [ 4 ]
Sarah Palin
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Rick Santorum
2%
 2%  [ 1 ]
Jon Huntsman
2%
 2%  [ 1 ]
Some complete outsider
12%
 12%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 40

Author Message
Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3315

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a pretty big difference between believing that the government is best suited to handle issue X, and loving moar government just for moar governments sake.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bart



Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 1572

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kenshiro wrote:
Anyone who claims that they completely don't need government and/or don't get any measurable benefits from it is clearly insane and not in touch with the world around them.

HOWEVER:

There is a difference in the way this logic is stated and the way it is often used. The idea that we all benefit from having certain government programs and regulations in place is obvious, but this argument is often used to support the idea that if some government is good then more must be better, and there is a logical fallacy between those two ideas; the one very much does NOT guarantee the other.


I have never heard anyone make that argument. Can you give examples?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kenshiro



Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh, fuck. Now I have to go digging through old facebook feeds to find the evidence. I'll be back in a few days.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bart



Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 1572

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the argument is often used, wouldn't it be easy to find examples?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10381
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kenshiro wrote:
Anyone who claims that they completely don't need government and/or don't get any measurable benefits from it is clearly insane and not in touch with the world around them.

HOWEVER:

There is a difference in the way this logic is stated and the way it is often used. The idea that we all benefit from having certain government programs and regulations in place is obvious, but this argument is often used to support the idea that if some government is good then more must be better, and there is a logical fallacy between those two ideas; the one very much does NOT guarantee the other.

I think you need to look at the bigger picture with this.

We Americans, in general, as a society, tend to think "more is better". Whether food portion size, vehicle size, house size, TV screen size, bank account size, number of lovers, etc. I'm not sure whether it's a cause or effect of our rampant consumerism, but one definitely influences the other.
_________________
...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.
http://about.me/omardrake
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3315

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that boiling things down to complete generalities like that is pretty much useless in dealing with actual real world issues and is more appropriate for philosophy students masturbating their acadamia peens.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10381
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's foolish to think things like that are mutually exclusive. Politics has EVERYTHING to do with personal philosophies.
_________________
...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.
http://about.me/omardrake
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3315

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But i'm pretty sure almost no one holds a philosophy of government for governments sake because we exist in a world of nuance. The thought process behind it is better described as a scale of how much people think government should be responsible for. Attempting to boil it down to more government or less completely ignores the fact that the question is actually Should the government handle problem X or not?


I challenge you to find anyone that isn't a complete fringe lunatic respected by next to none that makes claims like "Government should handle X because yay more government".
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10381
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree. If there's a problem we always take a "more" approach first.

We send more troops. We spend more money. We make more laws. We make more regulations. We make more requirements. We add more code. We work more hours. We charge more. We build more. We mine more. We refine more. More, more, more.
_________________
...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.
http://about.me/omardrake
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3315

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So farm subsidies are the same as nasa. Law enforcement is the same as foreign aid. PBS is equivalent to INS.

I mean hey it's all just "more" government.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kenshiro



Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
I challenge you to find anyone that isn't a complete fringe lunatic respected by next to none that makes claims like "Government should handle X because yay more government".


Ah! I see the problem now! I've just been looking for love in all the wrong places.

On the internet, as in life, it's all about location, location, location.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10381
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
So farm subsidies are the same as nasa. Law enforcement is the same as foreign aid. PBS is equivalent to INS.

I mean hey it's all just "more" government.

What I'm saying is that Americans treat "more" the same as "better" in many, if not most, cases.
_________________
...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.
http://about.me/omardrake
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3315

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
So farm subsidies are the same as nasa. Law enforcement is the same as foreign aid. PBS is equivalent to INS.

I mean hey it's all just "more" government.

What I'm saying is that Americans treat "more" the same as "better" in many, if not most, cases.


Which is relevant in cases of government how? No one says "lets make the biggest bureaucracy ever" They say "government needs to handle this" and government is created to handle an issue.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10381
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They most certainly do, they just don't realize it. People regularly want things that could only be readily accomplished with more government involvement i.e. bigger government. Just because they're ignorant of what it takes to achieve what they want doesn't change the reality of it.
_________________
...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.
http://about.me/omardrake
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3315

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
They most certainly do, they just don't realize it. People regularly want things that could only be readily accomplished with more government involvement i.e. bigger government. Just because they're ignorant of what it takes to achieve what they want doesn't change the reality of it.


So first back this up with some data, and second explain how this is necessarily a bad thing as the tone of your posting has been implying such.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... , 41, 42, 43  Next
Page 42 of 43

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group