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2012 U.S. Presidential Debates
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Mindslicer



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CTrees wrote:
To be fair the first one isn't "clever," just competently done.

Also I don't see how the second one is racist. Moronic or misguided, sure. Is "black guys are secretly batman villains" a stereotype of which I was unaware? I thought I was pretty up on the latest trends in racism, given that I live in South Carolina...


Here's one take.

Quote:
By using the "urban" makeup of the Heath Ledger Joker, instead of the urbane makeup of the Jack Nicholson character, the poster connects Obama to something many of his detractors fear but can't openly discuss. He is black and he is identified with the inner city, a source of political instability in the 1960s and '70s, and a lingering bogeyman in political consciousness despite falling crime rates.

The Joker's makeup in "Dark Knight" -- the latest film in a long franchise that dramatizes fear of the urban world -- emphasized the wounded nature of the villain, the sense that he was both a product and source of violence. Although Ledger was white, and the Joker is white, this equation of the wounded and the wounding mirrors basic racial typology in America. Urban blacks -- the thinking goes -- don't just live in dangerous neighborhoods, they carry that danger with them like a virus. Scientific studies, which demonstrate the social consequences of living in neighborhoods with high rates of crime, get processed and misinterpreted in the popular unconscious, underscoring the idea. Violence breeds violence.

Superimpose that idea, through the Joker's makeup, onto Obama's face, and you have a subtly coded, highly effective racial and political argument. Forget socialism, this poster is another attempt to accomplish an association between Obama and the unpredictable, seeming danger of urban life. It is another effort to establish what failed to jell in the debate about Obama's association with Chicago radical William Ayers and the controversy over the racially charged sermons of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or the Joker could just be viewed as a lunatic out of touch with reality.

That bullshit you posted is exactly that: bullshit. The guy that wrote that is talking out their ass trying to make points and connections that don't really exist. Next time you're trying to make a point, make sure the person you're referencing is actually making sense.
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Last edited by Darqcyde on Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CTrees



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seriously, I reread the article, looked at the posters again, both examples seem to be mocking the portrayed candidate, basically calling them crazy and out of touch with reality. Like CT said, anything more is just some projecting, stretching bullshit. Which version of the joker is being portrayed is a moot point, crazy is crazy is crazy. Choosing The Dark Knight version only makes sense, since difference is about 16 years apart, and the newer version is way fresher in people's minds.
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Mindslicer



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Or the Joker could just be viewed as a lunatic out of touch with reality.

That bullshit you posted is exactly that: bullshit. The guy that wrote that is talking out their ass trying to make points and connections that don't really exist. Next time you're trying to make a point, make sure the person you're referencing is actually making sense.


Actually, I agree that it's bullshit. Nevertheless, that's what the media projects. The writer is making a huge stretch to claim that a critique of Obama (clumsy as it is) is racist when it's not just to gin up the base.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Media is now One Man's Opinion?
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure I understand Mindslicer's point. Is he saying it's okay to depict Obama in a stereotypical way for someone of his race, or that it's not okay to depict Romney in a way which is not a stereotype?

I also don't find the Joker makeup racist.
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CTrees



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, if it we Romney dressed as the Joker, and threatening to baptise Batman's parents? You might be on to something.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CTrees wrote:
Now, if it we Romney dressed as the Joker, and threatening to baptise Batman's parents? You might be on to something.

Regardless of how wrong it is, this would make me laugh.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
CTrees wrote:
To be fair the first one isn't "clever," just competently done.

Also I don't see how the second one is racist. Moronic or misguided, sure. Is "black guys are secretly batman villains" a stereotype of which I was unaware? I thought I was pretty up on the latest trends in racism, given that I live in South Carolina...


Here's one take.

Quote:
By using the "urban" makeup of the Heath Ledger Joker, instead of the urbane makeup of the Jack Nicholson character,


What the absolute fuck?

Mindslicer, maybe it would help you to make your point if you had a source that wasn't complete fucking stupid.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Final Fact Check:

Quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) — Voters didn't always get the straight goods when President Barack Obama and Republican Mitt Romney made their case for foreign policy and national security leadership Monday night before their last super-sized audience of the campaign. A few of their detours into domestic issues were problematic too.

Romney flubbed Middle East geography. Obama got Romney's record as Massachusetts governor wrong. At the same time, they injected a little more accuracy into two leading misstatements of the campaign: Romney's claim for months that Obama went around apologizing for America, and the president's assertion, going back to his State of the Union address in January, that the U.S. military's exit from Afghanistan will yield money to rebuild America.

A look at some of their statements and how they compare with the facts:

ROMNEY: "Mr. President, the reason I call it an apology tour is because you went to the Middle East and you flew to Egypt and to Saudi Arabia and to Turkey and Iraq. And by the way, you skipped Israel, our closest friend in the region, but you went to the other nations. And by the way, they noticed that you skipped Israel. And then in those nations, and on Arabic TV, you said that America had been dismissive and derisive. You said that on occasion America had dictated to other nations."

OBAMA: "Nothing Gov. Romney just said is true, starting with this notion of me apologizing. This has been probably the biggest whopper that's been told during the course of this campaign. And every fact checker and every reporter who's looked at it, governor, has said this is not true."

THE FACTS: Romney has indeed repeatedly and wrongly accused the president of traveling the world early in his presidency and apologizing for U.S. behavior. Obama didn't say "sorry" in those travels. But in this debate, Romney at last explained the context of his accusation: not that Obama apologized literally, but that he had been too deferential in his visits to Europe, Latin America and the Muslim world.
Obama said while abroad that the U.S. acted "contrary to our traditions and ideals" in its treatment of terrorist suspects, that "America has too often been selective in its promotion of democracy," that the U.S. "certainly shares blame" for international economic turmoil and has sometimes "shown arrogance and been dismissive, even divisive" toward Europe. Yet he also praised America and its ideals.
______

OBAMA: "What I think the American people recognize is, after a decade of war, it's time to do some nation-building here at home. And what we can now do is free up some resources to, for example, put Americans back to work, especially our veterans, rebuilding our roads, our bridges, our schools."

THE FACTS: If Romney's "apology tour" was a campaign whopper, so has been Obama's repeated claim that ending expensive wars meant the U.S. now has money to spend at home. There is no such peace dividend because the wars were financed largely by borrowing.
Yet Obama, too, watched his words a little more carefully Monday night, with his milder suggestion that "some resources" are freed up. That's a more plausible point, if only because U.S. "resources" include the ability to continue to go deeper in debt, but for the purpose of fixing roads, bridges and the like, instead of for making war.
______

ROMNEY: "Syria is Iran's only ally in the Arab world. It's their route to the sea."

THE FACTS: Iran has a large southern coastline with access to the Persian Gulf and the Gulf of Oman. And it has no land border with Syria.
______

ROMNEY: Said that when he was Massachusetts governor, high-school students who graduated in the top quarter "got a four-year, tuition-free ride at any Massachusetts public institution of higher learning."

OBAMA: "That happened before you came into office."

ROMNEY: "That was actually mine, actually, Mr. President. You got that fact wrong."

THE FACTS: Romney was right. The John and Abigail Adams scholarship program began in 2004 when he was governor.
______

ROMNEY: "I said that we would provide guarantees, and that was what was able to allow these (auto) companies to go through bankruptcy, to come out of bankruptcy. Under no circumstance would I do anything other than to help this industry get on its feet. And the idea that has been suggested that I would liquidate the industry. Of course not. That's the height of silliness. I have never said I would liquidate the industry."

OBAMA: "Gov. Romney, you keep on trying to airbrush history here. You were very clear that you would not provide government assistance to the U.S. auto companies, even if they went through bankruptcy. You said that they could get it in the private marketplace. That wasn't true. They would have gone through a liquidation."

THE FACTS: It's true that Romney didn't preach liquidation of GM and Chrysler and that he saw his approach as a way to save the auto companies. But his was an improbable course. Opposing a government bailout, Romney instead favored private loans to finance the automakers' restructuring in bankruptcy court. His proposed government loan guarantees would only have come after the companies went through bankruptcy. At the time, however, both automakers were nearly out of cash and were bad credit risks. The banking system was in crisis and private money wasn't available. So without hefty government aid, the assets of both companies probably would have been sold in liquidation auctions.

______

ROMNEY on SYRIA: "What I'm afraid of is we've watched over the past year or so, first the president saying, 'Well, we'll let the U.N. deal with it.' And Assad — excuse me, Kofi Annan — came in and said we're going to try to have a cease-fire. That didn't work. Then it went to the Russians and said, 'Let's see if you can do something.' We should be playing the leadership role there."

OBAMA: "We are playing the leadership role."

THE FACTS: Under Obama, the United States has taken a lead in trying to organize Syria's splintered opposition, even if the U.S. isn't interested in military intervention or providing direct arms support to the rebels. The administration has organized dozens of meetings in Turkey and the Middle East aimed at rallying Syria's political groups and rebel formations to agree on a common vision for a democratic future after Syrian President Bashar Assad is defeated. And Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton brought dozens of nations together as part of the Friends of Syria group to combine aid efforts to Syria's opposition and help it win the support of as many as Syrians as possible. The U.S. also is involved in vetting recipients of military aid from America's Arab allies like Saudi Arabia and Qatar.
Romney is partly right in pointing out Obama's failure to win U.N. support for international action in Syria. But the Friends of Syria group has helped bring in hundreds of millions of dollars in humanitarian aid and other forms of assistance to Syrian civilians and the political opposition.
______

OBAMA: "What I would not have had done was left 10,000 troops in Iraq that would tie us down. And that certainly would not help us in the Middle East." THE

FACTS: Obama was suggesting that he had never favored keeping U.S. troops in Iraq beyond the December 2011 withdrawal deadline that the Bush administration had negotiated with the Iraqi government. Actually, the Obama administration tried for many months to win Iraqi agreement to keeping several thousand American troops there beyond 2011 to continue training and advising the Iraqi armed forces. The talks broke down over a disagreement on legal immunity for U.S. troops.

______

ROMNEY: "We have an enormous trade imbalance with China, and it's worse this year than last year and it's worse last year than the year before."

THE FACTS: That's true as far as it goes but the imbalance is far from unique to the Obama years. The U.S. has run a trade deficit with China since 1985 and the gap has widened nearly every year since. According to Chinese customs data, Beijing reported a $181.3 billion trade surplus with the United States in 2010. That grew to $202.3 billion last year. The surplus for the first nine months of this year was $161.9 billion, well ahead of the level at this point in 2011.
______

OBAMA: "You are familiar with jobs being shipped overseas because you invested in companies that were shipping jobs overseas. And, you know, that's your right. I mean, that's how our free market works."

THE FACTS: Bain Capital, the private equity company that Romney ran from 1984 to 2001, did invest in several companies that shifted American jobs and operations from the U.S. to China and other foreign nations. In one instance in 1998, Bain bought a 10 percent investment stake in Global-Tech, a Hong Kong firm that used mainland Chinese factories to make toasters and other appliances for U.S. manufacturers that were phasing out American operations and jobs. Romney held full Bain partnership stakes in that deal before the firm sold its holding later that year. Bain also invested in several firms that outsourced to Mexico in the early 2000s, but by then Romney had begun shifting away from Bain to a role running the Winter Olympic Games in Salt Lake City. And in almost all of these cases, it remains unclear how much oversight Bain had in the overseas shifts. The Romney campaign has said that Romney's holdings were mostly passive in nature, particularly after he left the firm.


______

ROMNEY: "In the 2000 debates, there was no mention of terrorism."

THE FACTS: There was passing mention of terrorism in the 2000 debates. In the Oct. 17, 2000, debate between Democrat Al Gore and Republican George W. Bush, Gore talked about his work in Congress to "deal with the problems of terrorism and these new weapons of mass destruction." And in the vice presidential debate, Democrat Joe Lieberman defended the Clinton administration's record of preparing the armed forces to "meet the threats of the new generation of tomorrow, of weapons of mass destruction, of ballistic missiles, terrorism, cyber warfare." Romney's larger point, that the U.S. did not anticipate anything on the scale of terrorist threat that existed, is supported by the light attention paid to the subject in the debates.
______

Associated Press writers Bradley Klapper, Robert Burns, Tom Raum and Stephen Braun in Washington, Charles Hutzler in Beijing and Tom Krisher in Detroit contributed to this report.

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Snorri



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
CTrees wrote:
To be fair the first one isn't "clever," just competently done.

Also I don't see how the second one is racist. Moronic or misguided, sure. Is "black guys are secretly batman villains" a stereotype of which I was unaware? I thought I was pretty up on the latest trends in racism, given that I live in South Carolina...


Here's one take.

Quote:
By using the "urban" makeup of the Heath Ledger Joker, instead of the urbane makeup of the Jack Nicholson character, the poster connects Obama to something many of his detractors fear but can't openly discuss. He is black and he is identified with the inner city, a source of political instability in the 1960s and '70s, and a lingering bogeyman in political consciousness despite falling crime rates.

The Joker's makeup in "Dark Knight" -- the latest film in a long franchise that dramatizes fear of the urban world -- emphasized the wounded nature of the villain, the sense that he was both a product and source of violence. Although Ledger was white, and the Joker is white, this equation of the wounded and the wounding mirrors basic racial typology in America. Urban blacks -- the thinking goes -- don't just live in dangerous neighborhoods, they carry that danger with them like a virus. Scientific studies, which demonstrate the social consequences of living in neighborhoods with high rates of crime, get processed and misinterpreted in the popular unconscious, underscoring the idea. Violence breeds violence.

Superimpose that idea, through the Joker's makeup, onto Obama's face, and you have a subtly coded, highly effective racial and political argument. Forget socialism, this poster is another attempt to accomplish an association between Obama and the unpredictable, seeming danger of urban life. It is another effort to establish what failed to jell in the debate about Obama's association with Chicago radical William Ayers and the controversy over the racially charged sermons of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright.



that is reaching like fuck. This is indeed one of the rare cases where cries of racism are just plain fucking stupid.

still, you gotta admit that photoshopping Obama as a "witchdoctor" or something is racist whereas photoshopping Romney as one isn't. It would be nonsensical but not racist. (for the record, there is a limited amount of ways of painting Romney in a racist light, but they're few since racism against white people just isn't that big.)
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Him



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
Good thing Romney's white or all those pictures would be racist.

Indeed, Romney is white. How do you think racism works?
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

uh

magic?

and puppies

I'm sure it has something to do with puppies
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Mindslicer



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
Mindslicer wrote:
Good thing Romney's white or all those pictures would be racist.

Indeed, Romney is white. How do you think racism works?


Racism doesn't work, Him. It never works.

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