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Sam the Eagle



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
CTrees wrote:
"A third" is less than "most," so there's that.


Yeah but when a US-survey says that a third of the populace support taking away black people's right to vote you wouldn't point out that they neglected to mention that it means the other two thirds clearly don't support that?

Also, "most" didn't refer to that. It refers how most Israelis don't support giving the right to vote to palestinians if Israel annexed the West Bank.


Replying here but that's for Him as well.

Bolding mine and it's the main point of why I quoted that piece. We're talking about an hypothetical situation that's so huge whatever happens after has little or no relation to current events.

To take a similar example, it'd be like asking all US muslims to be parked in camps until they swear to defend US soil from terrorist attempts, make a poll about whether it's better to make them swear on Bible or on Quran; and argue about that poll' results in lieu of arguing about why those guys were put in camps in the first place. Annexing the west bank would creates a lot more ripples wolrdwide, not to mention a very likely new war in the middle east. Wouldn't that be the main point of discussion instead?.

Hence the baby and bathwater point made earlier. There is little objective information about the middle east that filters to the rest of the world, unless you're a specialised political analyst of the area; and even then... Any move made by one side is met, most of the time, with an excessive reaction from the opposite political party.; the rest of the time it's only an equal sized reaction. In the upmanship game peoples are so used to shock tactics they're losing touch with reality. E.g last January's orthodox protest making kids wears star of david clothing. Not to mention the very creative way Israel Pres. made a point about Iran's nuclear bomb capacity in the last UN session.

Usually Haaretz is a very solid, even if it nevers hides it's political leanings, source of news. This time I'm not so sure, and what bothers me most would be that more people will try to use it as a way to blemish all the good works it's doing otherwise.
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Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Israel annexing the West Bank is not a crazy hypothetical like that. I realize that it's a bit of a stretch to use a hypothetical like this to make a point about apartheid but it's not like any of the data was actually misinterpreted.


Anyway, bit weird to ask people whether they would support a hypothetical apartheid state when they're already supporting one now.
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Sam the Eagle



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
Well Israel annexing the West Bank is not a crazy hypothetical like that.


ORLY?. With all these Arab spring countries turning fundie and Sirya's civil war, and a very very volatile Lebanon, current events there can just blow up into anyobody's face...Just thinking of the consequences of such a move would at least involve the UN, with US having the worst time ever explaining a veto which would smack of double-standard, hence accrued risks of terrorist using this as an excuse to strike against US interest here or there. Or worse US not vetoing which would leave Israel with a steaming pile of poo and risking regional war. Even if events may not turn into this worst case scenario, they can spin so quickly out of control I doubt anyone is seriously contemplating it. You're way more optimistic than I am.

Agreeing with you about local hypocrisy though.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Mann is suing some of the people who accused him of academic dishonesty. Not sure how good his chances are... and as much as I detest the idea of silencing people through burdensome litigation... the guy's been getting dragged through the mud, compared to Jerry Sandusky, which is a shitty way to argue about scientific evidence.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, free speech doesn't yet permit you to commit libel. i'm getting tired of all the people who make their cases by flat-out lying, so i really hope he wins. and, yes, silences them.
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Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam the Eagle wrote:
Snorri wrote:
CTrees wrote:
"A third" is less than "most," so there's that.


Yeah but when a US-survey says that a third of the populace support taking away black people's right to vote you wouldn't point out that they neglected to mention that it means the other two thirds clearly don't support that?

Also, "most" didn't refer to that. It refers how most Israelis don't support giving the right to vote to palestinians if Israel annexed the West Bank.


Replying here but that's for Him as well.

Bolding mine and it's the main point of why I quoted that piece. We're talking about an hypothetical situation that's so huge whatever happens after has little or no relation to current events.

To take a similar example, it'd be like asking all US muslims to be parked in camps until they swear to defend US soil from terrorist attempts, make a poll about whether it's better to make them swear on Bible or on Quran; and argue about that poll' results in lieu of arguing about why those guys were put in camps in the first place. Annexing the west bank would creates a lot more ripples wolrdwide, not to mention a very likely new war in the middle east. Wouldn't that be the main point of discussion instead?.

Hence the baby and bathwater point made earlier. There is little objective information about the middle east that filters to the rest of the world, unless you're a specialised political analyst of the area; and even then... Any move made by one side is met, most of the time, with an excessive reaction from the opposite political party.; the rest of the time it's only an equal sized reaction. In the upmanship game peoples are so used to shock tactics they're losing touch with reality. E.g last January's orthodox protest making kids wears star of david clothing. Not to mention the very creative way Israel Pres. made a point about Iran's nuclear bomb capacity in the last UN session.

Usually Haaretz is a very solid, even if it nevers hides it's political leanings, source of news. This time I'm not so sure, and what bothers me most would be that more people will try to use it as a way to blemish all the good works it's doing otherwise.

Well, no, that isn't comparable. I suspect the same reason why some who support apartheid would be opposed to full on annexation is because that would bring them closer to Palestinians. Physically, I mean. Not that there aren't palestinians already in israel, but one set of rhetoric used by the israeli right (and why even many of them today support a two-state solution, if not out of any sympathy with palestinians) is the "demographic" problem. Keeping Israel as racially clean as possible. And so this combined with those who oppose annaexations for, well, humane reasons explain why they'd be a majority and why'd there be a seeming discrepancy.
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CTrees



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
Michael Mann is suing some of the people who accused him of academic dishonesty. Not sure how good his chances are...


From what I've read... not great. At least most of what he's complaining about are opinion/simple hyperbole (either clearly or interpreted that way by judicial precedent), he has become a public figure, and IIRC he's suing in DC, which has a strong anti-SLAPP statute. This could go pretty badly.
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Sam the Eagle



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:

Well, no, that isn't comparable.


Well, yes, it is. How do you like that for a rebuttal?.

I'm all for discussing whatever you feel like but at least try to make a solid argument for dismissing the point raised. Countering without explaining why and moving onto another subject won't make your first point, or lack of in this case, any more valid.

As for keeping Israel "racially clean", that's stupidass even by your standard. Are Ashkenazi racially clean enough for you, what about Sephardis or Ethiopians; what of the Indians jews of Goa?.
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smooth move, 4chan
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Bart



Joined: 22 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part of me wants to laugh, but seeing as 99% of Bieber's fans are teenagers who are supposed to be dumb and impulsive I can't help but feel bad for them.
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Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam the Eagle wrote:
Him wrote:

Well, no, that isn't comparable.


Well, yes, it is. How do you like that for a rebuttal?.

I'm all for discussing whatever you feel like but at least try to make a solid argument for dismissing the point raised. Countering without explaining why and moving onto another subject won't make your first point, or lack of in this case, any more valid.

As for keeping Israel "racially clean", that's stupidass even by your standard. Are Ashkenazi racially clean enough for you, what about Sephardis or Ethiopians; what of the Indians jews of Goa?.

It isn't comparable because one is infinitely more likely than the other. The point of you comparison was claiming that further annexations by Israel would be completely unlikely. They are not. And the attitude taken in those polls are not irrelevant, especially since there is already ongoing israeli occupations. And a fairly recent attempt to illegalize all arab parties in israel that was thankfully shut down by the israeli supreme court.

Sure there is a prevalent racism against other jews, particularly those of ethiopian origin, as well, but the fact remains is that Israel Our Home, the party of the foreignminister of Israel, openly calls for removing arabs from israel. Indeed the piece you linked makes this case as well when talking about israel as a jewish state and the risk of too many arabs would mean many israelis see "jewishness" as more important than democracy hence the call for removing the voting rights for israeli citizens of arab origin.
Also, by "my standard"? Don't talk down to me, man. You're the one linking propaganda pieces and dodging questions.

In other news: NYPD Cop plan to kidnap, torture, kill and eat women.
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Kilgore



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:

Also, by "my standard"? Don't talk down to me, man. You're the one linking propaganda pieces and dodging questions.


DELICIOUS!
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Arc Tempest



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't say this often, but LOL.
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Him



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come at me, bro. So yeah, a pro-israeli propaganda org or a, by israeli standards it must be added, liberal newspaper, which ones more reliable? Then again, I seem to remember some people on here buying the "armed terrorists"/"go back to asuchwitz" nonsense that the IDF put out after the massacre on the Mavi Mara.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10377
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Santa Claus is an evil bastard trying to corrupt our children by smoking a pipe Rolling Eyes

Best rebuttal:
The National Review wrote:
Santa Claus smokes! He also breaks and enters, travels without a passport, violates the terms of goodness knows how many countries' airspace, and doesn't pay taxes. He is overweight and he has little plan to do much about it. He's a terrible drunk, at least in Britain and Australia, where he is left sherry; and in Ireland, where he is traditionally provided with beer. He fails on the diversity and equal-protection fronts, too ...

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