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2012 U.S. Presidential Debates
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

=======Sorry...Long reply. I got too caught up in the philosophy of things and enjoyed talking on the subject too much. You can just ignore it if you want, but I'm not about to try and edit it down to a smaller point xD ========

Lasairfiona wrote:
I am okay with the media crumbling! And something much better replacing it!

That'd be a nice day. Probably as likely as Romney's chances of winning, but still...I can dream. xD (About the Media crumbling...not Romney. >.> )

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Quote:
I'll defend the religion, because it obviously hasn't made the people I've met into anything besides normal people who don't drink or smoke. =P (Not that I'm saying everyone will turn out that way)

Hm...so basically you're defending the religion based on how its adherents present themselves to outsiders.

Because people aren't truly sheep, even if they choose to act like it sometimes for convenience. The only reason so many religions with such minor differences (IE most Christian sects) exist, is that different communities of people that felt kinship with one another at at time banded together to be something "different" and gave themselves a name. Religions grow or fall out of practice like a business based on how well people in them like things and don't jump ship. So Mormons aren't hiding something from outsiders, because it's much too big for that. If they went around being all secret society-esque, people in it would find a different religion and people would talk.

Many Democratic leaders are religious too, but would never try to outlaw gay marriage. It's not how they or their particularly church believes.

Things change based on the members, and if they don't, the members do something new. For instance: http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2012/09/04/160570257/mormon-democrats-battling-romney-and-what-would-be-church-history
That might very well become a major divergent side of the Mormon church someday. Who knows.

Churches only seem so bad, because they're caught up on the wrong things. Gay marriage itself is just a crutch many churches lean on, because groups need an antagonist to feel comradery with one another. People want a sense of meaning in their group if they can't come up with something worthwhile to do. As opposed to churches that are more of community outreach programs. (Many of which are more liberal churches too) If they don't do good, instead the group mentality ends up where they choose something like people who are gay to stupidly focus on. And they will for a bit longer, until they lose too many followers and change directions. Videogames and the internet are probably the biggest things that could kill off a lot of bigotous churches in the future, because people no longer find need to find somewhere to fit in and find something to do, so won't fall on bigotry as a means to fit in. Then again, look at how shitty people are to one another on the internet too. It's really more of the same.

--------------------------------
Or a different way of addressing your statement is...As long as someone's actively not hurting someone else, I'm not one to prevent people from freedom of choice. I never see Mormons doing anything to affect society more than any other religion, so I don't see a reason to directly touch on it. Fighting against gay marriage or women's rights to abortions would be the only thing he might do, which wouldn't matter what religion he was with, if its not a more liberal church.

Darqcyde wrote:
I disagree. Many in the GOP wave around their religious devotion like a badge of honor, not bringing it up would be an injustice.

Yes, but having pride in something you value isn't a problem. Maybe the thing is problematic, or maybe it isn't. It doesn't change the fact that so many people don't feel pride over bad things. When they feel pride over something like religion, they look at its good points.
Quote:
Religion, or rather political abuse of it by those in power, is hands down the #1 cause of suffering throughout most of recorded history.

Exactly. In that, religion has been the scapegoat for power-hungry people time after time. People fail to grasp that if you removed the religion of those times, people would invent new ones. Even now, people create pseudo-religions around technology. This isn't something that will be gone from human nature any time soon.

It goes back to the need for social order and a place to fit in. Look at all the times in history the real reason was "Our group is the best, so let's conquer everyone" has been the root cause of things. Sometimes they added extra flair of "because this deity has proclaimed it!" but it doesn't change the fact that underlying desire to show supremacy is the real culprit for most of history. Trying to blame religion instead of the human nature of group mentality and desire for power is just ignoring the bigger issue to true understanding of the world.
Quote:
Also your example about being hispanic is a poor one. Actually it's really bad and doesn't make any sense.
Well, sorry. If it doesn't make sense to you, there's not much I can say to explain why the logic of believing just because someone has their own beliefs and culture (and religions amount to a culture in those brought up around them) they can't do anything besides look out for their own group's interest, is wrong. Sure it makes sense if you look at it superficially, but it's a bad argument that ignores free will. But it's cool. I won't bother trying to explain it further.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to level with you. I come from mormon stock, I have 8 mormon cousins. That said

Quote:
So Mormons aren't hiding something from outsiders, because it's much too big for that. If they went around being all secret society-esque, people in it would find a different religion and people would talk.


People do talk. brah.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adyon wrote:
Quote:
Also your example about being hispanic is a poor one. Actually it's really bad and doesn't make any sense.
Well, sorry. If it doesn't make sense to you, there's not much I can say to explain why the logic of believing just because someone has their own beliefs and culture (and religions amount to a culture in those brought up around them) they can't do anything besides look out for their own group's interest, is wrong. Sure it makes sense if you look at it superficially, but it's a bad argument that ignores free will. But it's cool. I won't bother trying to explain it further.

The rest is pointless to argue, I feel, but let me explain my disdain for the above. You're trying to make an analogy, I get that. I even get the point you're trying to make. You're choice of analogy is just very bad, and doesn't work. It's like saying "airplanes are to cats as trees are to dogs". There's no meaning there, but there seems like there could be, but there's really not.

I have this sense that you're getting offended but not getting angry. Using any value that is an inherent value of the person would be equally flawed. You could replace "spanish" with caucasian, black, short, tall, young, old, male, female, diabetic, has polio, etc., and any of those would be equally bad choices.
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
I'm going to level with you. I come from mormon stock, I have 8 mormon cousins. That said

Quote:
So Mormons aren't hiding something from outsiders, because it's much too big for that. If they went around being all secret society-esque, people in it would find a different religion and people would talk.


People do talk. brah.

LOL Yeah. I'll admit that it's kind of got it's crazy side. I've never been surprised so many decide to leave. There's a reason I thought of Scientology. Though I'd say that nothing that people who've left said ever struck me as something scandalous that was hidden. Then again, I've done a lot of looking into the matter. I used to be willing to accompany random people to different churches just to see the differences, as it interested me think about. (And ranged from..."Holy shit, what the hell is going on in here?" to "I'm going to pass out from the boredom".) Either way, You probably have a lot more stock Mormonism than me then, so you're perfectly justified in having a a strong opinion on it. I just was in my mind defending the few people I know who are awesome people and still devout Mormons.

In our hometown it was the Seventh-day Adventist group that tripped us out. They had a lot of HARDCORE members. We knew one that was 100% convinced that if she was still out after sunset on Friday, she'd be going to hell. They actually made special accommodation for her at graduation so she could go first and get gone before sunset. I know my wife and some of us tried to be nice to her, but she was actually a very rude, conceited person that looked down on others. You just gave up trying after awhile.

Darqcyde wrote:
The rest is pointless to argue, I feel, but let me explain my disdain for the above. You're trying to make an analogy, I get that. I even get the point you're trying to make. You're choice of analogy is just very bad, and doesn't work. It's like saying "airplanes are to cats as trees are to dogs". There's no meaning there, but there seems like there could be, but there's really not.

I have this sense that you're getting offended but not getting angry. Using any value that is an inherent value of the person would be equally flawed. You could replace "spanish" with caucasian, black, short, tall, young, old, male, female, diabetic, has polio, etc., and any of those would be equally bad choices.

Yeah, I chose Hispanic in my mind, simply because it was a very notedly different culture, (my hometown is 70% Hispanic now and didn't used to be) and a lot of people have problems relating to one another. I think to that end, religion is similar in that people are raised with certain cultural aspects, at least in places like my hometown. Just how you said I could have replaced it with any of those other things like "tall" or "young, I feel that automatically deciding how someone else will act based on their gender, culture, religion, race, hair color, or whatever is a bad way to go. That's all I think he did in that message when he added that. I know he had a broader meaning, and truthfully I don't even think that was a major point. It just stood out as a bad thing to include, but not anything I really care about.

I'm defending my opinion, but I don't really actually care all that much. Like I said, what he posted was not a research paper or professional document. It was an opinion piece slapped on with his shows. He can say whatever he wants. My original thought was just a critique of it. I'm definitely not guaranteed to be right. I just feel still that he could have said more with less.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now to backpedal a bit. Mormonism does a fairly solid job at raising people to form working or semi-working nuclear families and having them be active in their church. They do that by having a fairly authoritarian and patriarchal doctrine, that includes a lot of weird shit and manages to require even more disregard of science in order to fully believe it, (Native americans are a lost tribe of israel, black people are black because they come from the angels who didn't fight for god in the war in heaven or didnt fight as valorously).
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adyon wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
The rest is pointless to argue, I feel, but let me explain my disdain for the above. You're trying to make an analogy, I get that. I even get the point you're trying to make. You're choice of analogy is just very bad, and doesn't work. It's like saying "airplanes are to cats as trees are to dogs". There's no meaning there, but there seems like there could be, but there's really not.

I have this sense that you're getting offended but not getting angry. Using any value that is an inherent value of the person would be equally flawed. You could replace "spanish" with caucasian, black, short, tall, young, old, male, female, diabetic, has polio, etc., and any of those would be equally bad choices.

Yeah, I chose Hispanic in my mind, simply because it was a very notedly different culture, (my hometown is 70% Hispanic now and didn't used to be) and a lot of people have problems relating to one another. I think to that end, religion is similar in that people are raised with certain cultural aspects, at least in places like my hometown. Just how you said I could have replaced it with any of those other things like "tall" or "young, I feel that automatically deciding how someone else will act based on their gender, culture, religion, race, hair color, or whatever is a bad way to go. That's all I think he did in that message when he added that. I know he had a broader meaning, and truthfully I don't even think that was a major point. It just stood out as a bad thing to include, but not anything I really care about.

I'm defending my opinion, but I don't really actually care all that much. Like I said, what he posted was not a research paper or professional document. It was an opinion piece slapped on with his shows. He can say whatever he wants. My original thought was just a critique of it. I'm definitely not guaranteed to be right. I just feel still that he could have said more with less.

Well here's what you're not getting. By Spanish, I assume you mean Hispanic , but that's not really accurate I'm willing to wager. I'd guess Mexican is probably closer to the truth. Surprisingly, there isn't this universal hispanic culture, sure there are a bunch of similarities, but they change as you go from Mexico to Venezuela to Puerto Rico to Argentina to Spain to California to Florida to Cuba to New York City.

But that's beside the point. Things such as religion and culture definitely factor into policy decisions that a leader will make. But again, I see it's pointless to argue or talk with you on this.
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Vox Raucus



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Religion, or rather political abuse of it by those in power, is hands down the #1 cause of suffering throughout most of recorded history.

It's a good thing that I don't have much respect for you to start with, because a statement this batshit insane should cause any rational poster to lose respect for you. Seriously, go back and read it again. Religion has caused more suffering than poverty? Than starvation and famine? Than disease?

It is a far larger truth to state, as an author I'm currently reading does, that "Men always seek to justify the violence that they do."
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vox Raucus wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
Religion, or rather political abuse of it by those in power, is hands down the #1 cause of suffering throughout most of recorded history.

It's a good thing that I don't have much respect for you to start with, because a statement this batshit insane should cause any rational poster to lose respect for you. Seriously, go back and read it again. Religion has caused more suffering than poverty? Than starvation and famine? Than disease?

It is a far larger truth to state, as an author I'm currently reading does, that "Men always seek to justify the violence that they do."

Sorry, I should say "human cause". You forgot earthquakes, tsunamis, and volcanoes too btw.

Famine and disease are natural occurrences in all animal populations too. It happens, it's supposed to happen, and it will get worse. Also, you think religious leaders didn't play a role in exacerbating said natural occurrences by limiting availability to resources?

Religion, however, is something people manufactured. Regardless of whether there is not a higher being, regardless of an individuals faith, it is still humans that codified a set of rules and then acted based upon them. I'm pretty sure, throughout history, many, many acts of genocide were committed as acts of religious devotion, including states where the head of state was also the religious head. And there's plenty of readily available evidence out there. Hell, even Hitler thought he was doing God's work, that the Aryans were chosen people.

And you mention justification, but I don't buy it. To say justification is to say they were making excuses after the fact. Adhering to your beliefs isn't justification, it's adhering to a moral viewpoint, usually a religious based one. Before you try throwing around Simone de Beauvoir, or whomever it is that's paraphrasing her, you need to broaden your scope a little more.

So let me restate then:

Religion, or rather political abuse of it by those in power, is hands down the #1 human cause of suffering throughout most of recorded history.
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Kenshiro



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:

how about, "the value of my house won't be impacted by the banks foreclosing on all my neighbors"? or "i won't be surrounded by sick people who can't afford health insurance, and my health insurance/health costs won't be increased because i have to pay for indigent people getting health care in the emergency room"? maybe "i won't have to worry about the state raising fees on everything, because the wealthiest 1% are now paying at least the same tax rate i am"? or "i don't have to worry about tripping over retirees who are living on the street because their social security got cut"?

no man is an island, my friend. unless you are rich enough to buy one and hire a security force to keep the little people at bay.


You're absolutely right that I do live in a society - a collective group of people working together to some extent to ensure survival and success - and that a certain amount of community-oriented thinking is appropriate and warranted for the betterment of all.

However, I also think that that community responsibility cannot be imposed by force upon someone without at the same time depriving the government of the very moral authority that it is relying on to make that judgement call. Community action must as much as possible be voluntary, or it is little more than indentured servitude.

What right do I have to tell you what to do with your house? What agent gave me the divine right to command you to go see a doctor in the first place if you don't want to? Who am I to tell you what kind of relationships your allowed to have, or the number of people that you're allowed to be involved with at one time? Once we begin compromising liberty in the name of community goodness, where do we stop? And who decides?
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who am I to tell you not to drive drunk?
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Now to backpedal a bit. Mormonism does a fairly solid job at raising people to form working or semi-working nuclear families and having them be active in their church. They do that by having a fairly authoritarian and patriarchal doctrine, that includes a lot of weird shit and manages to require even more disregard of science in order to fully believe it, (Native americans are a lost tribe of israel, black people are black because they come from the angels who didn't fight for god in the war in heaven or didnt fight as valorously).

Yeah, that's the good points I saw in them. I'm not really fond of the crazy nor the tendency to just be "stuck" in the patriarchal mode, but at least it's nice to see families once in awhile. Yeesh, compared to some of the Protestant churches I grew up around that are FULL of hypocritical people on marriage. Things all the time like, "Damn gays, ruining marriage!" ...Uh, didn't you cheat on and get divorced from your last 3 wives? (I won't go into others, but you can guess)
Darqcyde wrote:

Well here's what you're not getting. By Spanish, I assume you mean Hispanic , but that's not really accurate I'm willing to wager. I'd guess Mexican is probably closer to the truth. Surprisingly, there isn't this universal hispanic culture, sure there are a bunch of similarities, but they change as you go from Mexico to Venezuela to Puerto Rico to Argentina to Spain to California to Florida to Cuba to New York City.

But that's beside the point. Things such as religion and culture definitely factor into policy decisions that a leader will make. But again, I see it's pointless to argue or talk with you on this.

Actually I said Hispanic instead of Spanish. =P So definitely meant that. I had to re-read and see if I'd used Spanish, since most people say that in my hometown, so I had to make sure I didn't slip and say that instead. But actually by Hispanic...I mean a huge mix of Mexican, Guatemalan, and several other ethnicities. It's about an even mix of Mexican to Guatemalan and that's only about 70% of them. There's so many unique cultures in that town now, it's kind of fascinating. (To me anyway) Explains why there's over 25 types of churches in a town you can drive across in 5 minutes going 35mph. =P

And I don't disagree that religion and culture factor into making decisions politically. I just don't see how being Mormon in this case has enough weight to cause us to worry he will make decisions different than any other of the crazies I've seen lately on the Republican ticket. He's not going to ban drinking, smoking, or legalize polygamy. Hehe It would be fun to draw him as a magical underwear superhero President though.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's irrational to believe that society should have responsibilities to us - protection, infrastructure, etc. - and that we have no responsibility to support society. That's wanting something for nothing. Indeed, the moral authority to restrict the rights of citizens within reason is derived from those protections the state offers individuals. Since all people surrender certain rights or freedoms (such as the freedom to kill your neighbor for his food or possessions - something permissible without society) everyone is entitled to equal protection from the ravages of "the state of nature." We give up the right to steal, murder, and abuse to gain peace and prosperity which are unavailable when living without society. As Hobbes said, life in the state of nature is, "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."

Now, the amount of rights we surrender and the protections we receive in return are related, and they're controlled by mutual consent. That's the social contract. How do we consent to our end of the social contract? Representational government. We - in theory - elect those who will bring the balance of what we surrender and what we gain to a satisfying equilibrium. If not, we vote them out.

That's a slap-dash version of social contract theory, which was deeply influential on the founding fathers of the US.
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Kenshiro



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Who am I to tell you not to drive drunk?


Nice tryÖ

Kenshiro wrote:
Community action must as much as possible be voluntary, or it is little more than indentured servitude.

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Last edited by Kenshiro on Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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Bart



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kenshiro wrote:
WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Who am I to tell you not to drive drunk?


Nice try.

Kenshiro wrote:
Community action must as much as possible be voluntary, or it is little more than indentured servitude.


Quote:
Once we begin compromising liberty in the name of community goodness, where do we stop? And who decides?


So why is drunk driving so obviously in that limited number of things were liberty can be compromised ? Did you decide ?
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Kenshiro



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bart wrote:
So why is drunk driving so obviously in that limited number of things were liberty can be compromised ? Did you decide ?


I don't know. Maybe it isn't. I tend to think that it is, but I don't have all the answers - only my best guesses. Which is exactly why it makes so much sense to me to stress being pro-liberty so much at the federal level; by not coming down with a "but thou must" solution, the federal government allows states and cities and even private citizens to experiment with many different approaches - even ones such as full-on communism. If that's what a group of people want to do with their lives and their land, that's their right - as long as I'm not required by force to participate, I see no reason why it should be any of my business.
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