welcome to the fest
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

11/13 Winter is coming
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9, 10, 11  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> Sinfest
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Gibson22



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
At this point it really really isn't about opinion. It's a lot more like that scene from clerks where they discuss whether or not "porch monkey" is a racist slur.


"Hey, my grandmother had the utmost respect for the Jewish community. In fact, she told me to be nice to them or else they would put the Sheeny curse on me."

"RANDAL!"

"What?"

----

"'PORCH MONKEY!?'"

"Oh, it's okay. I'm taking it back!"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3301

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyway, regarding Shakespeare

Quote:
Nothing is a double entendre, "an O-thing" (or "n othing" or "no thing") was Elizabethan slang for "vagina", evidently derived from the pun of a woman having "nothing" between her legs.[4][15][16]


Not the dude you go to for support in "this isn't sexist" arguments.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gibson22



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But all that states is that there was slang back in that day for "vagina". I wouldn't say it was sexist if a woman had a "pussy" or if a man had a "dick." A bit vulgar, maybe, but not sexist.

Shakespeare was progressive for his time though. Yes, he lived during an era where women were viewed as underclass, but that was a product of the times. The real issue here was a meaning of the word "tame" could be used as equally well for men as women.

I could just as easily say that Glossy was "taming" Seymour today or that Monique tried to "tame" Slick earlier. Just like most situations, someone just took it in the wrong context.

Now I know this is reaching, but being tamed is also up to the one being tamed. You can't always tame everything because they do not want to be tamed. Example; feral cats cannot be tamed nor certain other creatures. Taming does not necessarily mean that the one being tamed is without will, and that seemed to be what sparked this as a sexist debate.

Anyway, good talk and intellectual stimulation. Go ahead and wrap it up Mr. McDermot if you'd like and I'll read it tomorrow and tip my hat off to you. I'm off to bed.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Arioch



Joined: 15 Oct 2012
Posts: 229

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Magenta wrote:
No one was taming her to benefit themselves, the way you so eloquently defined the word.

Pity to see when a personal hurt point of a sentient person makes her unable to read.
If you'd bother to pay attention to the line you reference here you'd see that
1) that it not the definition of mine, but one from Wikipedia. And no, i was never editing that page.
2) the definition is exactly opposite to your claim, the term "tame" requires there was no tamer's benefit among the goals.

So that your idea of benefitting of Fuchsia is, frankly, yours only.

Quote:
Animals follow instincts that humans are told not to follow.

As a person, once having a cat, who could sit the day through by the table with a fish on it and not take a piece, i can assure you that animals are perfectly capable (if they want to - but same applies to humans) to suppress their instincts out of respect they have to themselves and to humans they live together with.

Quote:
they can't bargain and they can't argue.

They can. The training has a vast share of bargaining.
And they can argue if the human is willing to put efforts to understand how they do communicate their point.
Surely communication cat-to-cat or human-to-human is easier than between species. But that does not preclude it.

Well, at least you softened your words and quit total denial of animals having thoughts, feelings and even emotions, like you claimed initially.

Quote:
Because they're a fucking PERSON.

And animals are persons too. To claim the opposite is gross and arrogant per se. If you do deny animal a right to be person, then buy yourself Aibo or some other robot. But not a living animal.
There are a lot of animals purchased to spend a summer in the cottage and then thrown away as winter makes the cottage inhabitable. Why ? because "animals are not persons". Hate this attitude and all the implications it has!

Quote:
Taming something kind of makes it sound like you OWN them.

Dirt is in the eyes of the seer.

You cannot own an animal in the sense you own the pencil, and then later break it in anger and it only means a buck or two lost.

I would bring this again:
"You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Prince

That is taming as it goes in Russian.
Not owning, but allowing someone to trust you, to rely on you, to need you - and thus getting yourself responsibility not to break that trust.

And that is not "animal training" you seem to take it for. The latter is a separate concept EVEN in English Wikipedia.

Quote:
but you can't tame a being of clear sentience like a human

Shakespear is too ancient, okay, let it be.
However modern translators use exactly that word to convey "Le Petite Prince" to English, they should have known better ? Well, okay, they were not American, so how could they know!
But those - are they American enough for you ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Doubt
They think this word can be used about human beings (and not even about women - as it was suggested by some sexists-aware post above) given you know what you mean by it: http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/nodoubt/bathwater.html
oooh that weird itchy idea to share a bathwater, still cannot believe Europeans did it for real


Quote:
A better word to use instead of tame is to influence, to inspire.

Nice words but aren't they both designating a one time action ?
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/inspire
I don't see here continuous, long lasting relationship.
I don't see there trust to rely and intimacy (not sexual one) to need someone's company.

When at Big D.'s Fyoosh has Blue for "elder experienced sister" role, who could help her or suggest how to be a proper devil girl. Now that she's trying to be proper human girl (and also due to Blue's own pain) she does not have such a friend. Well, did not have. I think that this lack was one of reasons that she was so responsive to the granny's warm and carrying patience towards her. And i think Fyoosh'd naturally start to like her, enjoy her company, miss her, and favor her advice on any human life hardness she can meet. And i believe the natural outcome would be long-lasting beeline, deep relationship full with mutual trust and respect.

Sidenote 1: Afterall, how many friends does Fyoosh have now? Crim himself, of course. Blue ? no more, not until her pain would be lived over. Glossy ? no. The granny - yes to me and no to you. Then who ? Should she be focused on Crim and no one but him ? I wish her better social life than that

Sidenote 2: it also seems to me like Fyoosh had completely forgot of Blue's very existence. On one hand he probably can not enter again Big D.'s house to meet her. But i guess she could drop a note via boot girls or such. She'd to expect that her longtime friend would miss her and could express her friendship and respect. I feel like this behavior is childishly cruel and heartless on Fuchsia's side. That is partially a reason i'd like to see Fuchsia having public job like cafe maiden for the granny, that could give Blue a chance and an excuse to randomly drop in, get a cup of tea and exchange smiles with that ex-girlfriend. While i cheer Fuchsia and Criminy getting together, i feel that abrupt slashign of her relations with Blue very improper and careless

I do not want to see it "shoot and forget" kind of isolated interaction "influence" and "inspire" terms convey.

Nice words by their value, but they do convey a very different sense.

Miss Magenta wrote:
And on that note - Fuchsia already has a job. She's become a painter.

That is her hobby. Whether it became a job or not i don't remember to be seen. Also most of her paintings are still by the tree, not sold out.
Though that is possible, and would she manage to turn her hobby into her profession i'd definitely salute her.

Miss Magenta wrote:
And I think I'd rather Fyoosh not get a job, honestly. I think I'd rather see Granny work solo and Fyoosh off doing her own thing than working for some elderly mortal, honestly.


I doubt there are mortals elder than immortal succubi, including Fuchsia.
I also can't get what is wrong with working for elder person or younger one or why the age even counts in professional relations.

And about financially depending on Crim, i'd definitely rather see Fuchsia independent for a while. To me it looks a bit premature yet. To me it looks Fuchsia is yet to get used to a regular routine life on her own, so whether she'd choose to go on Crim'a allowance later, it would be equal-to-equal consideration of situation rather than runaway-to-host dependency. Since we almost do not see Fyoosh'es life except for flirting with Crim and for painting hobby (one-time talk with the granny is definitely to little to draw conclusions, though i'd be happy to see then together more often), we can prove no conclusions and only can speculate of personal guesses and expectations.

My gut feeling is that Fuchsia did not had enough time yet to became a society member in same weight as Criminy was, and hence she needs independent work and place for quite a while before they'd be able to live together.

As a side note, the idea of husband working solo, while a wife being a housewife, is largely based upon having pregnancy and raising kids. Since we did not saw neither of that in sinfest world, the idea of woman skipping work is kind of... a castle on the sand. Fuchsia was not living on Blue's expenses, then why should she do on Crim's ? I think she's capable of better.

Miss Magenta wrote:
it's obvious that Fyoosh has chosen to live by that tree

That is probably cultural. Perhaps climate in Ohio allows one just to live by the tree. But being from Russia i could not even produce such an idea. In Russia living by the tree means "sick in early autumn and dead in late one". Well, i used to spend nights outside in late August and i may assure you it is damn cold, to the point that you'd be not able to sleep!
Well, even Squigley, equipped with worm robes, sleeping bag and tent, even he was cold in the nights. Pebble and Lil'E needed worm scarfs in the middle of the day, despite having relatively warm coats. Now you suggest Fyoosh may be spending nights by the tree having nothing but light dress we use to see her wearing ? Lord, i definitely hope she does have a place to stay! And if she did lived by the tree and Criminy let that go on, then he would be ultimately careless and heartless person, that we hope him not to be.

Miss Magenta wrote:
where all of her art supplies lay

http://sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4450
We can also see a stack of books there.
Assuming they are not all tutorials on arts, that should mean those are Crim's. Yet we know for sure he has some apartments.

Miss Magenta wrote:
And no, Crim and Fyoosh living together would not be "kind of marriage,"
....
It's kind of something friends do for each other...?
....
Li'l E and Pebbles ... have shown absolutely no romantic interest in one another

If i'd talk about some random pair, that would be fair point.
But heck! i was talking about Crim and Fyoosh as we know them.
They are definitely more than friends. They are definitely not siblings. They definitely do have romantic interest in each other.
For them - them and not Pebble and Lil'E you bring for example - living together and not trying to be a family would be werid and pointless.

@Succubus1982 - you can hardly imagine how terrifically slow this forum is with posts above one-liner chat. Is it really that unbearable to read few posts in a row ?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Succubus1982



Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 919
Location: England

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When they're you're posts Arioch? Yes. Anything you post is excruciatingly painful for me to read Mad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17092
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:
Just don't read "Taming of the Shrew" then. I'd hate for anyone to get a gut-full of hatred for classical lit.


actually "taming of the shrew" is an excellent example of why one might object to using the word "tame" in relation to a woman (have you yourself ever read - or better, seen - the play?)

for those of you not familiar with it, in the beginning, katherine is a head-strong, outspoken woman who is not afraid of telling anyone (especially men) what she thinks of them. (this is terrifying to the men, who are apparently completely incapable of demonstrating their own worth to her.) she is tricked/forced into marriage with petruchio, who takes her off to an isolated house where he deprives her of food, clothing and sleep. he pretends this is kindness (nothing is good enough for her) - but in reality, it is torture. he also insists that she agree with whatever ridiculous statement he makes, and reinforces this by depriving her of things until she agrees. (he does not include any physical abuse, but apparently there is a whole genre of shrew-taming stories, many of which do involve the woman being beaten. so it was in no way regarded as a gentle act.) shakespeare may use the word 'tamed', but in reality, she is broken. as a horse is broken by riding it until it stops bucking, or a torture victim is broken, by starvation, sleep deprivation, mind games. yes, she gives a great speech at the end about a woman's duty to her husband. victims of stockholm syndrome often speak up for their captors.

in short, Arioch - whatever wikipedia tells you, 'tamed' is rather a loaded word in english.

and in any event, i would question how much fuchsia was actually changed by her encounter with nana. there has only been one, after all, and they just chatted a bit. nana may have reassured her that she wasn't automatically perceived as a monster, that she had value - but then, seeing storytime's images of her in the cave did the same thing. and crim's been telling her that all along. even in her interactions with monique, from way back, she's been treated like just another girl. so i don't see tea with nana as life-changing, more just another confirmation that's she's okay. i would say nana provided her with reassurance and a chance to calm down. but she's part of an on-going process, not some special actor.

and we haven't had an opportunity to see if fuchsia has changed her opinion of herself since then. for all we know, she will still recoil in fear of being thought evil, the next time she meets a stranger.
_________________
aka: neverscared!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Arioch



Joined: 15 Oct 2012
Posts: 229

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

but the concept still remains. If you gave up "tame" word for a clone of "break", then you'd pass this original meaning to some another word, which one?

Or another option - you just lost that concept from your mind and your life, in "1984" style (or one sci-fi book, which title i forgotten). Which i think would be a loss.

Since Fuchsia is rarely shown in "slice of life" style issues, we can hardly know for sure what is he doing in time spare from Crim. But i hops she has occupation and friends independent from him. And Nana could be among the best possibilities for her.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sporko



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 2890

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:
Guest wrote:
You need to understand one thing, Gibson, that dissent... is not tolerated amongst some people here. Monkey being one of them. He also doesn't exhibit traits that he resent others doesn't have (humourous, cleverness, intelligence) so you can tick him as a hypocrite right off the bat. My advice to you.


Thank you for the input. Very Happy I really don't mind if he has a differing opinion or if Monkey bashes my opinion. Honestly, it was fun reading his/her comments whenever I was in here. He's always right up there with something funny. I'm just on the receiving end this time.

Besides, I did come on this forum tonight looking for a bit of intellectual stimulation and it appears I found it. Very Happy


a. the statement "dissent... is not tolerated amongst some people here" is both biased and not representative of the actual general attitude. better advice? don't listen to guest. he has a bee in his bonnet about people disagreeing with him, but people generally get into arguments with him because he either is wrong or takes 8 pages to say absolutely nothing.

b. ...you came on the comics subforum looking for intellectual stimulation? ...really?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Arioch



Joined: 15 Oct 2012
Posts: 229

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

b) why not ? this is not "lets bang like pigs and make greatest foursome evar" or "kill them alien buggers all at once with my mighty nuke" kind of comics.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cleocatra



Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 170
Location: Cave

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

man it was so weird for me to skip to the last page of this discussion

I was all "hey why not talking about knitting"
but then douchebags
and I was awww


you gotta tame the douchebags
_________________
- explanation of feminism -
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Oneponytoruleall



Joined: 02 Jan 2011
Posts: 3114

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cleocatra wrote:
man it was so weird for me to skip to the last page of this discussion

I was all "hey why not talking about knitting"
but then douchebags
and I was awww


you gotta tame the douchebags


No.

I don't care if he did follow you home.

We don't need anything else that eats and poops living in this house.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17092
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arioch wrote:
but the concept still remains. If you gave up "tame" word for a clone of "break", then you'd pass this original meaning to some another word, which one?


well, considering "taming of the shrew" was written before 1600, i would say shakespeare's use is pretty much the original meaning, right?

and that's the great thing about english - we have lots of words that mean sort of the same thing, but they have shadings. so, if you are talking about taking a wild creature and making it tolerate humans, you can:
1) break it - which is done with pretty harsh treatment.
2) tame it - which (according to dictionary.com) means
Quote:
1.
changed from the wild or savage state; domesticated: a tame bear.

note that i have highlighted 'domesticated'. domesticated means more than just getting something to tolerate your presence, it means you turn it into something useful to you - so you aren't preserving the thing's original spirit.
or 3) gentle it - which may be what you really meant. if you look it up, you will note that one of the definitions is "to tame", but it also means to calm, to soothe, to "make gentle".

actually, just look at dictionary.com's definitions for the verb tame:
Quote:
verb (used with object)
9. to make tame; domesticate; make tractable.
10. to deprive of courage, ardor, or zest.
11. to deprive of interest, excitement, or attractiveness; make dull.
12. to soften; tone down.
13. to harness or control; render useful, as a source of power.


do you see where one might find it insulting to say one has been 'tamed'?
_________________
aka: neverscared!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Arioch



Joined: 15 Oct 2012
Posts: 229

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
well, considering "taming of the shrew" was written before 1600, i would say shakespeare's use is pretty much the original meaning, right?

Since he used to write comedies like Romeo and Juliet, i'd not be sure his word usage does not contain tongue in cheek.
But well, maybe it was exactly that meaning in 1600 and people did not knew there can be other taming than that


Quote:
note that i have highlighted 'domesticated'. domesticated means more than just getting something to tolerate your presence, it means you turn it into something useful to you - so you aren't preserving the thing's original spirit.

You tell it to me! i highlighted this difference to Miss M here, but she chosen to ignore this and put her words in my mouth instead Sad


Quote:
or 3) gentle it - which may be what you really meant.

if you look it up, you will note that one of the definitions is "to tame", but it also means to calm, to soothe, to "make gentle".

Close, but not quite. Fyoosh is not aggressive usually, so most time no need to calm her down. But soothing her - in sense to ease her discomfort or fear - was definitely needed.

But the missing part is close to "imprinting", except that is does not turn the object to mindless automata.
Emotional response, joy of being together and sorrow of missing you, trust.

That sense that is used in the quote from "The Little Prince". I don't want to think English has no way to express and communicate that concept.
I don't think speaking English limits you to only speak of animals as how to break their will.

Quote:
actually, just look at dictionary.com's definitions for the verb tame:

Well, you missed one more "14. to cultivate, as land or plants."
Though this one is too in line with "to domesticate".

Quote:
do you see where one might find it insulting to say one has been 'tamed'?


You made a point. Still the action remains, how to express the concept i told above ?

Since you claim this word is that bad-bad-bad you should either have another or remove the whole concept of creating emotional response and link with trust and caring. I know that "Babel 17" is a fictional exaggeration but still Sapir–Whorf hypothesis has its value.
If you cannot communicate that kind of creating relations with animals with ease, you cannot teach it one another and effectively would loose it from mainstream thought and behavior. The above automatically made claim that animals lacks even emotions just shows this disgustingly clear.

If you really don't have this concept in you language, then that all would fall on death ear, you would not be able to see a person in animal no matter how it would try to communicate with you.

I scanned http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=tame
Looks like English attitude to animals is limited in "constraining" and "forcing" them.
Corresponding word in Russian is rooted in "hands" concept, was most probably created in sense of "accustomed to human hands". Just like the test that was used last half-century to make domesticated foxes: "here's my hand to you, what would you do with it ?"

When i was studying English i was very surpised by "it" pronoun towards animals. It is practical, you don't have to learn rather random gender choice. Yet... this means that animal is not much different from a rock at the language heart.

I still have the tame now hope that you do have a word to making animal person emotionally responding and accustomed to hands, rather than to stacks. Though you probably just don't need it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Miss Magenta



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
Posts: 1804
Location: im probably asleep right now

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh my god just shut up already, you dumbass.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
sporko



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 2890

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

arioch: that was pretty well-explained, and the time you took to write that out is appreciated.

if i'm getting this correctly, your "tame" is more of a "showing humanity/kindness"--not really changing will or subjugating but more humanizing? what is the russian word for what you are trying to convey?

a question about russian as far as gender: are all animal nouns either feminine or masculine, or are there neuter animal nouns too?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> Sinfest All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9, 10, 11  Next
Page 4 of 11

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group