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I hope this thread kills itself (a disscussion on suicide)
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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:27 am    Post subject: Re: I hope this thread kills itself (a disscussion on suicid Reply with quote

Sam the Eagle wrote:
I don't think there are any lines in the sand/concrete rules, it's as personal as it can be.

Sam the Eagle wrote:
it's all up to you; no one else should tell you what to do or how to sort your own problems.


I completely agree, it is about as personal a decision as can be and no one can or should make that sort of decision for you (disregarding euthanasia, as that's not the topic here). I also agree that while mental anguish and physical pain are often interconnected, they do not have to be. chronic, daily pain becomes part of your life but it is independent of your mood. if you are in pain everyday, that does not mean that you have to be depressed everyday. that kind of persistent pain leads to periods of depression, especially if it has been affecting you for an extended period of time, but you can certainly have good moods, laugh, feel hopeful, optimistic, joy, etc. I think that we are pretty much on the same page, only vary on the degree to which chronic pain effects one's emotional state. sure one can cause the other, but when that occurs I've found that they become intertwined enough that they need to be take as two aspects of the same problem, not two separate problems, and that any effective solution must address both, as cause and effect become so cyclical that just treating one is insufficient.

...man, for some reason I have been finding it very difficult to articulate my position on this since you joined the discussion and I feel that I'm bordering on incoherent rambling at this point.
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Gibson22



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Gibson22 wrote:

The only exception I can see if when you are in constant pain, physical pain without any hope of getting better due to life-threatening illness and even then I think people should choose to fight it out.


this is actually the subject of the thread - suicide by someone who is not terminal, but can expect nothing other than a life of physical or mental pain.

so that should explain why darq thinks you are clueless. you've kind of missed the entire point.


Thank you for that, Mouse. When I read into it I thought that emotional pain was also being considered here. I thought we were talking about suicide in general and that the euthanasia was but an extension of the conversation. But yes, definitely no qualms against Darqcyde. It's a difficult subject to talk about and it is easy to accidentally cross the line. Especially when it is a newcomer butting in. Razz
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meh, my anger passes quick. Also, being ignorant of this sort of thing isn't totally a bad thing. I mean, assuming things isn't good, but knowing depression first hand isn't fun. And my battles with that were first before any chronic pain issues surfaced. Like about 14-15 years ago, right after high school.
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sporko



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok so i had to read through the thread like three times to figure out what the hell was going on here.

basically (correct me if i'm wrong) the thread went from "is it more selfish to be the suicidal person or the person not wanting the person to die" to clarifying that we are NOT talking about terminal illness to clarifying further that we are talking about physical pain only (as finnegan wanted to separate physical pain from psychological). topic was further narrowed to someone young who is in chronic physical pain who is looking at 40+ more years of this same pain without chance of cure or respite, with only polypharmacy as an option for transient relief.

basically, the question is "do you think it's ok for a person in this particular situation to commit suicide, and is it more selfish of them to want to off themselves or is it more selfish of the people left behind to want this person to live?"

my $0.02 is that yes, it's ok for this person to commit suicide.

Quote:
So I guess my point is should suicide be tolerated in non-terminal individuals who have had, who have, and will probably continue to suffer with no reprieve?


i don't really see what they'll do about it even if you don't tolerate it...it's not really anyone else's call.

also, to answer the last question in the original post: yes, the line is drawn when the person has a plan developed, at least in health care. it's fuzzier if you're just talking average social interactions without written guidelines.
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Oneponytoruleall



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...

Last edited by Oneponytoruleall on Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:18 am; edited 2 times in total
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Sam



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, outside of the unfortunate metaphorical connotation that one commits suicide because they have lost their marbles, ..
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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

please ignore what was posted here, turns out I'm wasn't comfortable revealing all that once the drugs wore off.
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Last edited by Finnegan on Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:27 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Oneponytoruleall



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...

Last edited by Oneponytoruleall on Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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mouse



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

me either - but i think you (or someone like you) needs to talk with your family. no matter what the cause, when someone we care about dies, we miss them. my mother died of natural causes after a long illness, i have no reason to feel guilty, but i still miss her and think of her every day. that's just human.

i think the death of another causes extreme grief of the type you are referring to if we feel there was something we could have done to prevent it, some way we could have avoided the loss, both to us and to the one who died. that is why suicide is often so devastating to family and friends - they wonder why they didn't see it coming, why they couldn't help the person, why they didn't do _something_ to make the person they lost feel needed and loved and all the other things that make a person want to keep living. if someone genuinely see no other way out, the only way they can hope to make those who love them accept that is to make them understand how things are for them, so the others accept that there is really nothing they can do.

but you will need to expect that this will be hard for them. and you need to listen to their reasons for why they think your decision is wrong - because they may see things you don't, because your mental state doesn't allow you. this comes up even when we are talking about assisted suicide for someone with a terminal illness - some people really hold on to hope that something can be done, that things will change if you just hold on a little longer. and that is why people are reluctant to extend the right to die to non-terminal patients, because there is a chance that medical science may find a way to make life better.

good luck.
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finnegan wrote:
please ignore what was posted here, turns out I'm wasn't comfortable revealing all that once the drugs wore off.



Out of curiosity, ever try adrenaline injections?
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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

to the best of my knowledge adrenaline is not used as a treatment for an overdose, though many people believe it to be because of that scene from pulp fiction. adrenaline (and perhaps epinephrine) is used in cases of cardiac arrest. the typical result of an overdose is respiratory arrest, not cardiac. in cases of opioid overdoses narcan, an opioid antagonist which blocks the opioid receptors thereby counteracting the effects of the drug, is the treatment. but as I said, I don't know for sure. I believe sporko is a nurse, she would probably know the specifics.
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Sam the Eagle



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finnegan wrote:
please ignore what was posted here, turns out I'm wasn't comfortable revealing all that once the drugs wore off.


1- I was sleeping on a reply to this one, it was quite harsh.

2- Well, you know :


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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam the Eagle wrote:
Finnegan wrote:
please ignore what was posted here, turns out I'm wasn't comfortable revealing all that once the drugs wore off.


I was sleeping on a reply to this one, it was quite harsh.


you found my post to be harsh or your reply was going to be harsh? if the latter, if you have a strong opinion/ reaction I would be interested in reading it in a PM. that goes for anybody else who read it before I took it down. I still want to know how people feel or hear their insight about this type of situation, I just decided I wasn't comfortable having something that personal so public. I would welcome a PM of anyone's opinion/reaction/insight. all this happened less than three weeks ago and I'm still processing, I want/need other points of view to do that properly.

pony, I appreciate you respecting my privacy by editing your post, but as you didn't quote mine directly and as I'm sure it was widely read before I took it down, I don't want you to feel obligated to have done so. if you want to put it back up I have no objection as it contributes to the discussion (that goes for you too, mouse, I value your input). I'm not opposed to sharing my experience, I just didn't want it "part of the public record" so to speak.

I really hope I didn't kill the thread too by also making it all about me.
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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just came across this strip and have had the exact same sequence of thoughts go through my mind before.



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sporko



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finnegan wrote:
to the best of my knowledge adrenaline is not used as a treatment for an overdose, though many people believe it to be because of that scene from pulp fiction. adrenaline (and perhaps epinephrine) is used in cases of cardiac arrest. the typical result of an overdose is respiratory arrest, not cardiac. in cases of opioid overdoses narcan, an opioid antagonist which blocks the opioid receptors thereby counteracting the effects of the drug, is the treatment. but as I said, I don't know for sure. I believe sporko is a nurse, she would probably know the specifics.


adrenaline is the same as epi, and yes, it's for cardiac arrest (which i think is why it was given in pulp fiction--cardiac arrest due to heroin overdose). narcan for opioid overdose is correct.

i think thy was talking about adrenaline injections for pain, though, like lidocaine/epinephrine combinations and stuff like that.
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