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11/13 Winter is coming
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Succubus1982



Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 919
Location: England

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm lost Confused I thought I clicked on a Sinfest webcomic discussion but it appears I've stumbled into a lesson on Russian Gender Pronouns 101.....
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Arioch



Joined: 15 Oct 2012
Posts: 229

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
see you as needed, yes - because you are probably providing food and shelter. miss you...not necessarily. taming, in english, does not imply an emotional attachment.


Then i had to conclude that your translators in mid-XX were either totally lame or totally restricted by the language.

Plotwise i can assure you the fox did not seeked neither shelter nor meal (and the prince could not offer them anyway) yet it was a loner and after getting a company it would start to feel his loneliness as a lack of copany, not just a state of affairs.

And if the translator would run into multi-paragraph explanations, the climax phrase would be just ruined.

If you have a short concise word for some concept - you would communicate it.
But if you don't - with 90% chance you would not make multi-word constructs, you would just use some more or less close concept that has the single word for it *instead*. And this would push the concept out of everyday talks and thought, more or less.

Really, that is quite an insight how can english-speaking reader understand that plot.
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Arioch



Joined: 15 Oct 2012
Posts: 229

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Succubus1982 wrote:
I'm lost Confused I thought I clicked on a Sinfest webcomic discussion but it appears I've stumbled into a lesson on Russian Gender Pronouns 101.....


You would rarely see Sinfest topic longing more than 3-4 pages discussing the strip and nothing else. If it did- most probably it developed some side-story to discuss.

Here is no strip-relate discussion for long, the rest is of little value to you, you can just unwatch it.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17581
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, i have no idea what on earth you are talking about now. where did the fox come in?

but you know, when you come right down to it.....i kinda gotta point out that i am a native english speaker, and you are not. so really, i think i have a better idea of the english definition of 'tamed' is. and it's not what you are trying to make it be.

when you tame something, you own it. when you befriend it, you don't.

and things don't choose to be tamed. someone else decides they will tame that person/thing. katherine in no way went to petruchio and said "make me a more docile woman".
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russian's a neat language.
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Arioch



Joined: 15 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MerchManDan wrote:
So, I was supposed to laugh when Mercutio cursed the Capulets & Montagues before dying of his sword wounds, and when R & J killed themselves at the end? This explains why high school English Lit was so strange to me.


If you attended high school, then words like "tragicomedy" should not have miss you.
Most local episodes of R&J were implemented as a comedy. Most rants of heroes are. The Juliet's wet-nurse is almost nothing but a comedian gag. The whole scene of first kiss is a sketch, contest who has sharper tongue (while below the surface Juliette was deeply wounded but managed to regroup and retaliate)
People entered to laugh and they laughed and laughed until suddenly realized that shaded by gags there drama seeds subtly grew up. That sudden shock was that made R&J an acknowledged top of Shakespeare's plays.
If you missed that duality and only judge the work by Di Caprio movie, well, you missed a lot.
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Arioch



Joined: 15 Oct 2012
Posts: 229

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
ok, i have no idea what on earth you are talking about now. where did the fox come in?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Prince

But the name and short extract would probably tell you nothing.
So why bother.

mouse wrote:
but you know, when you come right down to it.....i kinda gotta point out that i am a native english speaker, and you are not. so really, i think i have a better idea of the english definition of 'tamed' is. and it's not what you are trying to make it be.


I don not tell you what this word means in English, i explain you what it means in Russian and why "befriended" is probably closest concept yet still not the same. Well, probably that is not concept your language needs to express more or less often.
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Except the word you're thinking of in Russian is a completely different word. Words do not have exact equivalences between human languages.

I don't know what the original word or its meaning was in Le Petit Prince, but the fact that it was not written in either Russian or English makes the comparison doubly irrelevant.

Arioch wrote:

Then I have to conclude that your translators in mid-XX were totally lame

translation in general is lame

Doing it correctly involves creating something almost entirely new, so properly translating a great work requires the translator to be nearly equally great. Trying to maintain a high level of fidelity to the original work makes the translated work really cumbersome, and fudging a few ways of wording things here or there just doesn't cut it for reinterpretation. Worse yet, some translators aren't even good enough to really know the difference, I think.
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Succubus1982



Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 919
Location: England

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arioch wrote:
Succubus1982 wrote:
I'm lost Confused I thought I clicked on a Sinfest webcomic discussion but it appears I've stumbled into a lesson on Russian Gender Pronouns 101.....


You would rarely see Sinfest topic longing more than 3-4 pages discussing the strip and nothing else. If it did- most probably it developed some side-story to discuss.

Here is no strip-relate discussion for long, the rest is of little value to you, you can just unwatch it.


I am not 'watching' it in the first place. But I have as much right to be on the thread as you suppose you do, so you can't tell me to get off it just because I think your private tutoring in foreign languages and continuing arguement about how it's okay to tame women should be carried out in PM where such discussions that are personal between two members should be carried out. Mad
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

naaahhh
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10947
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I came in late. Let me see if I understand. mouse is explaining the meaning of "tame" in English, and Arioch is more or less ignoring the fact that he brought up the Little Prince as a way to show that taming isn't offensive, when it almost always is when used in reference to people, and has instead latched onto a discussion of translation that has nothing to do with the original point? Is that where we're at?
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6182
Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

there's also the part where he doesn't seem to think it's important to consider the meanings of the word in English, the language he is currently using, because apparently he meant a different word in Russian with a different meaning and we're all supposed to understand English words in Russian contexts because reasons
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
I came in late. Let me see if I understand. mouse is explaining the meaning of "tame" in English, and Arioch is more or less ignoring the fact that he brought up the Little Prince as a way to show that taming isn't offensive, when it almost always is when used in reference to people, and has instead latched onto a discussion of translation that has nothing to do with the original point? Is that where we're at?


Yup! ^_^



/never using that emoticon again omg
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sporko



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a. there are at least three people in the conversation, so PM is out

b. give the guy a fucking break. he's tried to explain why he's using the word as he knows it and what it means to him. at the start of this, it was because in his lexicon, the word is the equivalent to whatever russian word he is trying to equivocate. i really don't see why people are being dicks about it. i get it, you were offended by what his words were saying. after he explains his intent, i don't think your original point stands. stop nitpicking.

c. arioch: that's really interesting. i knew about kot/koshka (no cyrillic, sorry) and the cobaka coming from the same root but i didn't realize other animals had different roots for male/female. i was thinking more grammatical neuter nouns, though, but i think you answered my question because it doesn't seem like there are any grammatically neuter animal nouns--probably because of the fact that animals do have genders.

d. mouse: you can (english) tame me any time. *waggles eyebrows* Wink
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MerchManDan



Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 2065
Location: Somewhere else.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arioch wrote:
If you attended high school, then words like "tragicomedy" should not have miss you.
Most local episodes of R&J were implemented as a comedy. Most rants of heroes are. The Juliet's wet-nurse is almost nothing but a comedian gag. The whole scene of first kiss is a sketch, contest who has sharper tongue (while below the surface Juliette was deeply wounded but managed to regroup and retaliate)
People entered to laugh and they laughed and laughed until suddenly realized that shaded by gags there drama seeds subtly grew up. That sudden shock was that made R&J an acknowledged top of Shakespeare's plays.
If you missed that duality and only judge the work by Di Caprio movie, well, you missed a lot.
I am aware of the duality, of course, but on this side of the world R & J was always presented as more tragic, less comedy. If you meant "tragicomedy," then you should have SAID "tragicomedy" and I probably wouldn't have said anything.
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almost a shame to waste dennis' talent on him.
except it's always a pleasure to see a good dennis insult.
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