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18 Nov 2012 - Conch Shell
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Gibson22



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:


Ehhhh, that about sums up the last page or so of this thread.

Also, I'd like to see guest, dogen, monkey and shadowcell meet in real life. I think that would be a whole barrel of laughs.


Oh MAN. Why do you think I keep coming back? XD
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know about the others, but I'm wonderful in real life. Smile
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR

PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest wrote:
Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
It is such awful horseshit to say that more women are sexually assaulted and raped by people they know because it doesn't change the fact that women are also sexually assaulted and raped by people they don't know. Whether or not one is more likely than the other, one doesn't cancel out the other.


Uh-huh.

Quote:
Recently a woman from the arts community in Melbourne disappeared while walking home. She left a pub in the wee hours of the morning, had a five or so minute walk home but never arrived. Three days later she was found raped and murdered in a ditch. They caught the guy, and he had no idea who she was, he was just out trolling the streets for someone to rape.


Interesting.

Quote:
THAT is what women have to fucking live with. It doesn't matter that its more likely for a woman to be raped by someone she knows, because there is still a chance that they will walk down a dark street and someone who they don't know will fucking rape them.


Mmm.

Quote:
That is why I feel sorry when I startle women while out walking at night. That is why I fret for my girlfriend and don't let her work home from work alone -- not out of some weird alpha male pride king must protect the woman thing I feel, or from her 'paranoid delusions', but because within our society men rape women.


Yep.

Quote:
If I was walking alone at night and was set upon, there is a chance I could be raped, but most likely I would just get the shit kicked out of me and robbed, maybe murdered.

But rape is such a heinous physical and mental invasion that I will never judge a woman for her alleged 'paranoid delusions' that when we pass each other on a lonely street at night she thinks I am a potential rapist.

Because I am a human being of earth I feel empathy for women who feel as if they are constantly at war. I cannot understand what it feels like, but I can feel empathy for it.

It is such egotistical self-involved douchebaggery to come out and say HOW DARE YOU THINK I AM CAPABLE OF RAPING?


wow!

okay, I just had to take a moment to put down the keyboard and remember who I'm talking to here.

Let's ignore the hilarious condescension of your 'mmhmms' and 'ahhaas', and move on to the meat of it.

Guest wrote:

Here's why: Because I'm not an idiot that takes the words of a lunatic woman at face value. If I look at the statistics and frequency of women getting raped by strangers, and the frequency of getting randomly murdered by strangers, they're about the same. Depending on where you are, it could be up to 20% down to 9%. What does that tell me? It tells me that the incidences of rape and murder involving strangers are comparatively lower (much lower) than incidences involving close friends or family members. (And even so, the incidences of murder by strangers are mostly suffered by men, not women.) In other words, when walking the streets, should I constantly worry about getting murdered and consider every man (murders by strangers mostly by men) that approaches me "SchrŲdinger's Murderer"? You tell me if that doesn't sound delusional and paranoid. However, I'll tell what I think is awful horseshit: to coddle the unfounded fears of a woman, allowing them to remain mainstay, instead of showing contrary statistics that would allay those fears. That is horseshit.


Okay, so, you've sort of grabbed the wrong end of the stick about my girlfriend. She doesn't sit at home reading horror stories on the internet and have no idea that there are 'contrary' statistics. Nor does she use a pink iLady laptop that only shows google searches for recipes and articles from Cosmo. She, like I would hazard to say pretty much all other women, is completely aware of the statistics that say you are more likely to be raped by someone you know than a stranger.

Again, you seem incapable of understanding that these statistics are not 'contrary' to each other, they are both awful and frightening. Here, have another one: This one is about a woman home alone who had two men force their way into her house armed with scissors and sexually assault her. That was about two suburbs away from where we live.

There is no coddling here.

Guest wrote:
Maybe you could have done that instead of being an "egotistical douchebag" and tutting your girlfriend into this false sense of insecurity. If she feels "constantly at war", then have you pondered that maybe you're the one responsible if she's ignorant about the risk? Or maybe you just didn't bother to look it up. Finally, yes, considering that every man who approaches her and perhaps interested in her romantically a potential rapist is just stupid. YMMV.


IGNORANT ABOUT THE RISK. This is some real shit and I'm going to put it down to a few things, at the top being that when you get in to such a fucking lather about this shit you forget how to be a human being. She is not ignorant that statistically more women are raped by people they know than strangers. No one is ignorant of that statistic.

Look, Guest, obviously you are not romantically involved with anyone, and never have been. If you were then I would love for you to tell your girlfriend to walk home at night by herself free of any worry that harm may come to her because you refuse to coddle her. Tell her that statistically she is more likely to be attacked by someone she knows than a stranger so don't lock the doors and don't be safe on your walk home.

There is more than not feeling safe on lonely streets at night to make her feel like she is at war, see all of those republican maniacs that said all of those awful things about rape, as well as dickbags like you who actually have no idea spouting these awful opinions.

The post you made in reply to me was condescending, foolish and completely lacking in empathy and I think that is the real problem here.

It even connects with your stance on reddit -- I would hazard to say that if you had a fifteen year old daughter that some creepo snapped a photo of while she was in her swimsuit at the beach, and then uploaded it to an internet forum for her to be masturbated to by millions of anonymous men you might have something different to say about the jailbait forums.

I don't have a twelve year old daughter, but instead I have empathy.

Your crass lack of empathy is pushing you towards robot levels. And not even a good robot. Trying to turn around my post to make it seem like I am shielding my frail girlfriend from the big mean world when actually I am doing what I can to help the strongest woman I have ever met in my life feel safe, by using one statistic that in no way affects another statistic is such an unbelievable dick move. You have so much contempt for women, and for your fellow posters I genuinely wonder why you bother posting here.


Last edited by Dennis J. Squidbunny on Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:20 am; edited 2 times in total
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Guest



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Nothing like guests inabilty to pick items of the same scale when doing comparisons. Always straight to the most extreme possible comparison without any thought for what lies between.

No concern whatsoever for the fact that one "irrational" fear (which we'll just cede as irrational for now since it's frankly a matter of opinion as to what an acceptable risk of rape actually is) is at best a minor inconvenience for others to accommodate, versus these other irrational beliefs...which can kill innocent people.


What can I say? In talking about rape, I can't just compare it to fear of pickles. It's just not done. Even if Starling's particular fear is just as irrational, but I've gotten the accusation of being sexist, misogynist, and having no care for women (with the libelous claim that I cause my mother distress and not the other way around [perish the thought!]) so I figure I would go for something a bit more proportional. But I'm not dismissing the risk of rape by strangers as women still get raped by strangers. I'm attempting to alleviate the concerns of women who think women get raped by strangers all the time. Well, the numbers are in and they just - fucking - don't. The numbers are also in for people being murdered by strangers, and guess what, again, they just - don't. Is it so fucking terrible to tell a woman - a woman, singular - that she's crazy? About everything? That she's paranoid, and delusional, and feeding misinformation to gullible women who gobble it all up? Yeah. That about covers it.

Remember how you people defended Andrea Dworkin, even though evidence pointed to (and still points to) that she was insane? That's how I feel right now. This woman is crazy, and you're defending her as a reasonable, concerned individual, just because I'm the one saying it. Case in point, I will reiterate this brilliant piece of feminist sophistry (if you're still being awfully thick, it wasn't, and I actually pointed out she was a radical feminist who wasn't representative of the movement [but you still went lengths to defend and rationalise her words]), observe;

Quote:
I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.


Must've been the patriarchy, huh?
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"You people" is not a thing, Guest. I never defended Dworkin.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just read through the last few pages properly, and I just want to reitterate: none of this is about codling, or 'infantilising' anyone.

This is about saying yes, women have been attacked at night by strangers. Women being attacked by people they know does nothing to change the other statistic.

I am not saying WOMAN I AM MAN I WILL PROTECT YOU. I am saying 'hey, let me help you feel safe'. There is nothing condescending or codling about that. It's called love, Guest. Truth be told, she is the physically strong one in the relationship, we just feel safer if we are together at night on lonely streets.

It is about helping our lovers/sisters/wives/mothers to feel safe, in a world in which they are not safe.
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Mizike



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest wrote:
Mizike wrote:
You've already shown that you don't care if girls who aren't old enough to give consent are sexualized.


Err. When did I do that?


Well, since you asked:
Guest wrote:
Willem wrote:
Fucking good. I watched the Redditbomb from the start on SA and I'm delighted they caved this quickly. I can taste violentacrez's tears already.

also, an actual quote from the reddit admins:

"The decision to ban sections that focus on child sexuality wasn't an easy one, administrators said"

Reddit.


*snerk* This shows just how much how of a moralising, self-righteous pillock you are. Reddit caved removing content that you find offensive and you think that's "good." Huh. Nevermind it's a totally harmless act of looking at pictures and viewed in the confines of one's own home, which isn't involuntary as far as I'm concerned, however I'm sure that's irrelevant in your mind. Then the quote you cite has to do with censorship, because that's what it is; Reddit is forced to remove content of their site which people deem offensive. It's reminding me of this standup by Steve Hughes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cycXuYzmzNg

Finally I'm curious of the implications you wish to impart on Reddit's admins. Feel free to elaborate on that.


*Later*

Guest wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Yes, posting video of children dancing provocatively a crime

Buuuullshit.

Quote:
images sexualizing minors are directly classified as child pornography.

Uh-huh. And how much of that is subjective? Parents taking pictures of their child in the tub, is that sexualising them?


You have problems with the wimmins.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest wrote:
Dogen wrote:
The douchebag is the person who acts out of a sense of condescension, who refers to people's fears as delusions, and who expects people to behave rationally because he wants them to (people act irrationally all the time, and believe irrational things at alarming rates... are you this militant about all of them?). The douchebag is the person who sees a woman saying, "I live in fear," and their first reaction is to belittle her as paranoid.


So I'm a douchebag for thinking that this woman suffers from a delusion, rather than an irrational fear?

Yes, mostly because you're both using the word delusion wrong, and pejoratively.

Quote:
I suppose those that think vaccines cause autism, and foetuses that gets condemned to hell (a segue to the woman in Ireland who died from an infection due to having a clearly dead foetus in her womb) are fine in their irrational behaviour, but never delusional.

According to the clinical definition of delusion, probably. Some of them may suffer from delusions, but it's not a prerequisite for their positions. That's not to say they're right, either, but the difference between being wrong and having a pathological mental disorder is important because it goes to my belief that you're unnecessarily harsh in your assessment of women in general and feminists especially.

If you're not using the term in the clinical sense, which is totally possible, I have to assume you're using it for its hyperbolic quality... which leads me back to questioning the harsh tone you seem to prefer to use when talking about feminism. Unless you use hyperbole to describe everything with which you disagree. Which would be odd, don't you think? I'll let you tell me: do you use the harshest, most extreme terms possible to describe other things, or just in your descriptions of women?

I will add that I recognize that you're branching out away from feminists to support your diagnosis of this woman as delusional, which is good I suppose. It's unfortunate that you compared her fear of something that could actually happen (regardless of the possibility) to something which is totally fictional, though. Not a fair comparison.

Quote:
I'm "militant" to this woman because she makes the case for women to be frightened that all men interested in them are potential rapists (and/or in her case potential murderers who would leave her in a ditch) and people like you parroting her fears as though they were reasonable. That's what I'm "militant" about since, well, irrational fears are called that because they're, well, irrational.

You're avoiding my question by restating your position. I asked if you were this militant about other things, and you tell me, again, why you're militant about this thing.

Quote:
Quote:
You're not arguing facts. You're just using them as a blind you can hind behind while you mock women (if you've tried this hard to mock a man for a similarly irrational belief, I've missed it).


For someone who argues facts until he's blue in the face (just in case you're being extra thick today: that's an expression), you sure are quick to accept whatever this woman says. But no, I don't "mock women" as you so glibly assert. I mock this woman. Woman. Singular.

Trust me, it's not glib. I find you generally disheartening. Anyway... you say here that I'm quick to accept whatever this woman says, but in my post two pages ago I agreed (based on data) that women are most likely to be assaulted by someone known to them rather than a stranger, and even offered a counter position of some advocates that disagrees with what she said. So, to what can I attribute this false attribution of my position?

What I've been doing has not been addressing her position much at all, but your reaction to her position.

Quote:
Quote:
I guess I did, since you've never really shown much consideration for how women feel, but seem focused on the irrationality of their fear and how "delusional" they might be. I'd have an easier time ascribing compassion to you if you ever seemed to care about their emotional state rather than focusing on what's wrong with it. Totally subjective, naturally. I'm sure you're a big cuddly teddy bear in person, who nurtures them emotionally as you mock their irrational behavior.


I'm sorry, but are you having a problem with distinguishing between when someone is speaking specifically or generally about something?

So, in your own words, you're making the subjective case that I don't care for women because you think so? Nothing concrete to back it up, just gut feeling. Excellent.

If this were our first discussion of feminist topics you might have a point, as it is this whole post is one long question asking why you seem to have a pattern of belittling women when they hold feminist perspectives. Like Sarkeesian and Rebecca Watson, off the top of my head. You didn't just disagree with them (which is fine - I'll disagree with someone all day), you called them names and mocked them. I'm curious why you do that, and if you only do it to feminists and their allies, or to everyone.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm also interested in what Linus views as an "acceptable" risk of rape. Where's the statistical chance where it's not delusional to be worried about situations which could lead to you being raped?
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Willem



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
THAT is what women have to fucking live with.

I was out with an old friend of mine yesterday. She's currently studying to become a bio-engineer and is focussing her studies on forestry (or something like that). She goes on to tell me that despite studying forestry, she cannot actually go into the nearby forests alone because she's afraid as hell of what kind of people she'll run into in there.

Like this one time she was walking her dog in the forest and she notices a dude is following her. They're both walking on a pretty busy path, so maybe she's just imagining it, right? So she takes a turn and goes down a smaller path. Dude still follows her. But maybe she's paranoid, right? It's all in her head, right? So she leaves the path and just walks into the woods. The guy is still following her and is now getting incredibly close. Luckily, her dog decided to go apeshit and started barking and growling at the dude and he ran off, but what the fucking fuck is up with this goddamn shit?

So now, she only goes to the forest if she has someone (or her dog) with her. How fucked up is this shit. Fucking hell. Can you even imagine thinking 'Oh, I fancy a walk through the woods, better find someone to go with me or else I'm gonna get raped!'? Or just walking down the street, for that matter. She also told me a bunch of other occasions when she was harassed. Fuck any society where this is possible and where women have to live in fear like that.

Now, let's see what the posts below yours are.

FAKE EDIT: OH SHIT
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Willem



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest wrote:
Edit: To reduce rambling nonsense.

here's a quick way to do that: literally take a gun, put it in your mouth and pull the trigger. or if they don't have guns in sweden, take something sharp and just cut your wrists. you deserve to die, linus. shit ain't even funny anymore
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Willem



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alternatively, either commit yourself to a psychiatric hospital for your fucked up brain and your overwhelming case of autism

or

voluntarily let yourself be imprisoned because you are just a ticking timebomb - and your victim's probably going to be a woman
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Willem



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest, full-blown psychopath wrote:
Quote:
Recently a woman from the arts community in Melbourne disappeared while walking home. She left a pub in the wee hours of the morning, had a five or so minute walk home but never arrived. Three days later she was found raped and murdered in a ditch. They caught the guy, and he had no idea who she was, he was just out trolling the streets for someone to rape.


Interesting.

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Willem



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i bet you don't even understand why people are angry at you

e: enough with the multi-posting. I probably should be ashamed that I just told someone to kill himself with a straight face. It's not a nice thing to do. Do I mean it? Maybe, maybe not. It's strange, knowing you lack even the remotest hint of empathy actually makes it easier to say. Sort of like your lack of empathy is undermining mine. Luckily, come morning I'll be back to my own empathic self, you'll still be a robot. Kinda sucks, doesn't it? Well, for you. And for us, because we still have to suffer your presence in this world.

But for the record, don't bother killing yourself. Maybe it'd show up in the news and I'd make a post just quoting it and adding 'Interesting.' or 'Uh-huh.' and you'd probably deserve it, but if it's at all possible just try working on getting even a shred of empathy or maybe go live in the Swedish woods or something. Better thyself. Go now, my child. Go~~
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Succubus1982



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:
But they do sting if they feel their hive is threatened, and it can happen by total accident. You could be walking in the woods, accidentally kick a hive that was blown down during a storm, and then they would attack you. And besides, at first hearing them you don't know if it is a honeybee or a killer bee. Maybe upon seeing them they are moving so fast you can't be sure.

I have thought about that while watching the clip: "What could possibly cause that reaction? What event triggered it?" It could have been a dream, perhaps she almost choked on one, etc. I used to be afraid of heights because I had a bad trampoline accident. But, you can't be afraid of falling forever.

With being afraid of pickles I can (maybe...possibly...just the tiniest bit...) understand and sympathize, but she isn't just afraid, she is allowing it to paralyze her. Whether or not the said event happened when she was younger, she really should have addressed it by now.

Not that I am belittling your point, because we should all strive to be empathetic and understanding...

BUT IT IS FREAKIN' PICKLES.

I really don't think you need to feel your fear about bees is irrational though. I think that is a perfectly normal phobia. I know I was afraid of them when I was younger. Just don't let it paralyze you to the point where you break down in tears and can't control yourself.

Edit: I realized I didn't address the part about moths. Insects are gross. I, through much squeamishness, have taught myself to reach and touch them. As a result, I am the only one in a classroom that will catch a cricket with his bare hands and let it go outside. That amazes some people, so I assume that a fear of insects is in all of us at a certain level.

What you are doing is letting the fear become worse. Try getting past that by gradual steps. Look at close up pictures of insects. If you feel yourself cringing and freaking out that is normal. Just do it enough that you don't feel yourself become freaked out by them. Let that become normal and move on from there.


Moving aside from the bee issue for a moment. I never said the woman doesn't need help, clearly she does otherwise she wouldn't have agreed to go on national television and tell people about it, the issue here is she probably already tried to get help from doctors and psychiatrists and they likely as not laughed in her face. A lot of them laughed in my face too and told me I was being stupid and trying to get attention. Which is why I ended up getting depressed and trying to kill myself a few years back. When you get into a vicious cycle like that it's hard to break the chain. You feel frightened, you want to move past it, you try to get help and people won't help they just want to laugh at you like on that show, so you're stuck with your stupid embarassing problem and you've no idea what to do. This leads to desperation and stupid attempts just to get rid of this horrible feeling i.e. her choice to go on tv about it, which I'd never do because I already know the truth about tv: it is designed purely for people's ENTERTAINMENT. They don't give two shits about your issues as long as it makes good ratings on tv. So they'd far rather torture you with the object you fear for laughs then actually sit you down with a psychiatrist and give you the proper therapy you need, which I feel should be a private affair not something the world should know about, fuck the world, it's none of their business. But anyway, none of those people on that show have PHDs in psychiatry, neither do you (and neither does Guest but I'm generally steering clear of his fight). Therefore they have no business to discuss people's problems and the validity of them. If they want to do that they can go get a doctorate in the subject, study it for a few years, have a couple of patients with genuine problems and maybe possibly experience the situations from the suffers perspectives and maybe just maybe I'll want to take anything they say at face value. Until then all I will hear is the preaching of people of do not know what it is like and therefore cannot understand my pov and are of no use in helping me or our pickle girl. I'd quite like to contact her myself and give her some better advice regarding her issues however I too am not a psychiatrist and therefore I do not think I have the right to tell her how to live her life. I just feel sympathy for her and hope that she can resolve it eventually. Because however ridiculous she might seem she is a fellow human being and she deserves basic rights (which is the point I think Dennis is making, and I must say this thread has been a real eye opener, a lot of people are seeming way more respectable now than I originally imagined!) Anyway rant and wall of text done. Just wanted you to understand that the way to treat an issue you don't understand is not to ridicule it not matter how silly because that will not help the person. Just try and be patient and understanding next time. Wink
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