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Feminism because why not make a thread for it?
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't get how the conclusion of that article could be seen as anything but summing up the whole rest of the article.
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He hated the writing and in general most bloggers (his concept is that they like the sound of their own "voice").

Willem wrote:
Also, treating you as an equal isn't really the same as him agreeing with you on feminist issues, so it shouldn't really come as a surprise that his opinions about it aren't Correct.

This is a part I have never really understood - if their actions support equality, don't the opinions follow? Regardless of what they say? Of course I am eliminating the whole concept of someone saying that Women are Bitches and all that since I find it difficult to believe that anyone that would say that and even halfway mean it would not act in a manner that supports equality.
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
I don't get how the conclusion of that article could be seen as anything but summing up the whole rest of the article.

*shrugs* I don't try to evaluate what other people find enjoyable or frustrating to read. He agreed with the final paragraph and that was the conclusion I cared about sharing.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Huh. I really enjoy hearing other peoples' voices in their articles. Without it, the articles are much harder for me to get through even if I agree with them, just because they sound so dry.

Also, it entertains me Willem doesn't like nerdy game articles. I'm probably going to shamelessly continue to post them anyway.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:
This is a part I have never really understood - if their actions support equality, don't the opinions follow? Regardless of what they say?

There's always a difference in how people treat the people they know and love and how they look at more abstract groups, like 'women' in general. But from what you said, it doesn't really sound like your boyfriend treats you in a particularly feminist way. Sure, he's not stuck in archaic gender roles and treats you as an actual human being, but that doesn't mean he's a feminist. His actions may conform with an idea of equality, but they may not be the result of a conscious choice of doing this - and even if they are, it's likely more because he loves you and is generally a good person, than because he agrees with feminist ideas.

That said, I find that you can 'convert' these people, so to speak, by stretching their natural empathy and respect for others to larger groups. It all depends on how you explain feminism to him, if he's like this.

This is all speculation, though, obviously.

Samsally wrote:
Also, it entertains me Willem doesn't like nerdy game articles. I'm probably going to shamelessly continue to post them anyway.

By all means, feel free. Here, I'll post one myself: click
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willem wrote:
That said, I find that you can 'convert' these people, so to speak, by stretching their natural empathy and respect for others to larger groups. It all depends on how you explain feminism to him, if he's like this.

I'll take the speculation. IF he is like that (or anyone else I run into that is like that), how do you 'convert' these people? How should I approach the feminist explanation?
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Willem



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:
I'll take the speculation. IF he is like that (or anyone else I run into that is like that), how do you 'convert' these people? How should I approach the feminist explanation?

I find that a lot of people don't like certain feminist ideas not because they're unwilling or unable to empathise with women's struggle, but out of ignorance. Putting yourself in someone else's shoes is difficult for everyone and men certainly aren't very good at understanding what kind of world women face. I find that the best way to approach people in this case is showing them this world with anecdotes and by linking abstract ideas to personal situations. It's what I tried to do to a certain extent in this post. You have to try to bring large, abstract concepts down to a more human level, basically. And explain how you experience things in detail - and why this matters.

No guarantees, though. Some people don't respond well to being confronted with their own privilege or will just shut down and think you're overreacting or exaggerating.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

my own privilege has always sort of subtly bugged me, because it is so complete and far reaching that it is nearly impossible to really keep track of. It is the easiest thing in the world not to see. You can try to count where and when it benefits you in a myriad of ways and it's too much to keep an overhead of.

Not too long ago when I was in the boulder county courthouse there were two black female court workers who were finishing up their internship in scc as public reps; both of them (and others I saw) had completely straight, heavily worked hair. Basically, it was worked to not be negro hair anymore, it was "normal" hair. In discussing it, they had both just accepted a long time ago "oh, that's something you have to do." the baseline standard for a professional appearance in that environment is a straight-up burden for women, who have to tailor their appearance to old-school requirements for aesthetic, and it's a white person's aesthetic. Can't have frizzy nappy hair, gotta have white girl hair. If I wanted to be an intern there, I only pretty much just can't have shaggy hair. I don't have to turn my hair into something that it fundamentally is not in its natural state, just so that it fits a white aesthetic standard and only really impacts and forces an appearance obligation for women. It's so easy not to see, that the people who would have probably not renewed their internship due to a lack of professional (whitened) appearance had they kept natural hair, would not be consciously recognized by the people who did it.
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Him



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwLpoy0nfng
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willem wrote:
Lasairfiona wrote:
I'll take the speculation. IF he is like that (or anyone else I run into that is like that), how do you 'convert' these people? How should I approach the feminist explanation?

I find that a lot of people don't like certain feminist ideas not because they're unwilling or unable to empathise with women's struggle, but out of ignorance.


While there is certainly a lot of that, I think the biggest problem is as always the escalation of minor disagreement into fight to the death type arguing and some feminists inability to speak to the non-converted.

People like to empathise with others, people don't like emotionally heated debate. Discussions about feminism (and plenty of other topics) frequently get derailed into bullshit and people are very good at shaping their opinions on ideas based on everything but the ideas themselves. "which group of people do I like in this debate" is sometimes more important than "which group of people has the correct opinion".
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I'm definitely with you on that. I just had a debate about welfare/unemployment insurance that was really about how much she hated lazy people. It took time to work through the "all these people just want to sit on their asses and live off my money" to a substantive talk about the pros and cons of extending unemployment benefits during a recession. I imagine the same is true of feminism, especially because people the default view seems to be that it's angry at men, or blames men for all of women's problems, or wants to emasculate men (it's all about me, ladies!). Getting over that, I think, is the all-important first step to getting people to look at an article for what it's saying rather than what they think it's saying because of their preconceptions about feminists.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
Willem wrote:
Lasairfiona wrote:
I'll take the speculation. IF he is like that (or anyone else I run into that is like that), how do you 'convert' these people? How should I approach the feminist explanation?

I find that a lot of people don't like certain feminist ideas not because they're unwilling or unable to empathise with women's struggle, but out of ignorance.


While there is certainly a lot of that, I think the biggest problem is as always the escalation of minor disagreement into fight to the death type arguing and some feminists inability to speak to the non-converted.

People like to empathise with others, people don't like emotionally heated debate. Discussions about feminism (and plenty of other topics) frequently get derailed into bullshit and people are very good at shaping their opinions on ideas based on everything but the ideas themselves. "which group of people do I like in this debate" is sometimes more important than "which group of people has the correct opinion".

Not speaking about this article, but isn't safe to say that most schools of thought have their extremist? I think you have to take into account these often vocal segments that seem to distort and warp more generally accepted views and beliefs.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Snorri wrote:
Willem wrote:
Lasairfiona wrote:
I'll take the speculation. IF he is like that (or anyone else I run into that is like that), how do you 'convert' these people? How should I approach the feminist explanation?

I find that a lot of people don't like certain feminist ideas not because they're unwilling or unable to empathise with women's struggle, but out of ignorance.


While there is certainly a lot of that, I think the biggest problem is as always the escalation of minor disagreement into fight to the death type arguing and some feminists inability to speak to the non-converted.

People like to empathise with others, people don't like emotionally heated debate. Discussions about feminism (and plenty of other topics) frequently get derailed into bullshit and people are very good at shaping their opinions on ideas based on everything but the ideas themselves. "which group of people do I like in this debate" is sometimes more important than "which group of people has the correct opinion".

Not speaking about this article, but isn't safe to say that most schools of thought have their extremist? I think you have to take into account these often vocal segments that seem to distort and warp more generally accepted views and beliefs.



You're quite correct, but I was talking mostly for the perspective of the "out-group" as it were. For them, the extremist group seems more important than it really is. Which goes for most groups, reasonable and quiet people get less attention.

And hell, the group I consider "not a positive influence for most debates" is larger than the group I consider "actually wrong and extremist" (which is quite a tiny group). A lot of people are just bad at debating. While they might be correct they suck at convincing and educating and such.

All that simply enforces beliefs. In this context it reinforces ideas that women are overreacting or that feminism is about hating men or any of that shit. It incorrect, but with the internet a lot of people are exposed to every level of discourse on a topic and so you end up with people not knowing a goddamn thing about a topic seeing discussions that need the context of a thorough education on it. It sours people on the topic because they do not already have the filter that lets you sort trough bullshit, it's like people talking about your area of expertise and saying the silliest shit.

but whatever, it'll be reet.
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Him



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lies our fathers told us: The men's rights movement and campus-based misogyny
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Last edited by Him on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Willem



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
[url=Lies our fathers told us: The men's rights movement and campus-based misogyny]Lies our fathers told us: The men's rights movement and campus-based misogyny[/url]
oh darling, dearie me
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