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Feminism because why not make a thread for it?
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Him



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know what post you're reading, sam, because I didnt get that from samsallys post at all.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know how much money you think I have, but when I said 'travel safely' it was a nice way of saying 'not stow away in the baggage compartment of a plane'. I would blow my entire savings account on plane tickets alone.

I really would like you to share your solutions, though. That's the whole point of this thread. Even though I disagree that there is one all purpose solution, it doesn't mean I want to discourage idea swapping.

If I've misunderstood something, point out how. Personal attacks really don't help anything.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam the Eagle wrote:
Samsally wrote:

misreading, zealous anger, high horsing, asshattery.

How ironic.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clearly he just hates everyone with the same name as him.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I cant decide if it's funny that in a thread on feminism, where the link under discussion is a gangrape on a bus, and sam chimes in with anecdotes about how indian women he personally knows happen to personally feel about the country, that some dude has to barge in all aggro style about how it's not that way everywhere in india and there are plenty of perfectly lovely people there too.


So my question for Mr the Eagle is this.

So what?

There was a gangrape on a bus.

I can't really tell if you're trying to imply that the other Sam is lying about knowing these indian women, or how these women feel, or handwave away their feelings toward the country with your statement or what.

What the fuck is your point as regards this topic?
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no no don't you see if only you had the same breadth of perspective as mr the eagle all of the world's problems would just vanish in a magic puff of mutual understanding and turns of blind eyes

or at least they would be completely overshadowed into insignificance by all of the cool people who live in any sort of proximity to them
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Sam the Eagle



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
I don't know how much money you think I have, but when I said 'travel safely' it was a nice way of saying 'not stow away in the baggage compartment of a plane'. I would blow my entire savings account on plane tickets alone.

I really would like you to share your solutions, though. That's the whole point of this thread. Even though I disagree that there is one all purpose solution, it doesn't mean I want to discourage idea swapping.

If I've misunderstood something, point out how. Personal attacks really don't help anything.


Given the context, I took your travel safely as a snide remark against traveling in foreign countries.

The way I read your first post:

- misreading

Samsally wrote:
so you're referring to sexism as a global problem and dismissing local solutions? <snip>
Nope, the opposite. I meant that the best way to tackle these issues are local.

What I wrotre in the first place was:

Quote:
The problem with only talking about known coutry/culture is that you're left with actually a local solution to what is a global problem; and one size doesn't fit all.
By which I meant, a local solution that would work in your country/location will not be automatically efficient in another place/location, a pretty much obvious thing. Yup, not my best, sorry about that.

Given that start, the rest was read negatively. Something like:

Samsally wrote:
It's lovely that you want to start sharing ideas and solutions to sexism. Please be sure to post them here when you've come up with any.
underlining mine, imply sarcasm and/or ad nominem. If you want to share ideas or topics that's not the best way in my book. Under this light, your reply could easily pass as a high handed airheaded dismissal, just like the snotty post above.

That's the way I read it, whether it was your intent or not, I guess the fault was mine writing something so circomvoluted in the first place. Water under the bridge and all, back to the topic at hand.

Local background:

That it happened in a bus is important. There are public lines and one infamous, nicknamed "bloodline", which is private. Others may exist since we left the place. Delhi's subway has already a separate coach for women. That's impractical for a bus, but if you add a ticket inspector it will improve the security level by and large. It will also help in another way, as the line I mentioned above is known for it's high rate of accidents, with drivers fleeing the scene right after. These kind of jobs are low paid, so the monetary strain wouldn't be much in regard to the overall security benefit.

Next, and again something trivial, instead of the current fingert pointing between the police and the chief minister of Delhi (read The Hindu on these issues), why not create an all female or female led police force tasked to listen to sexual assualt victims?, this works elsewhere and there is enough police manpower in Delhi to do that. Right now it's not always safe for a women to enter a police station, cf link above for more horror stories.

These are the two practical ideas anyone can easily think of that would apply there. Then comes the root, imho, reasons (selective abortion especially in Delhi area, dowry, upbringing). Adressing those issues are a long term and something India needs to work out on it's own, no presumptuous well-wishingforeigners needed here.

---

@Monkey. Nope the post was only for Samsally only and not for Sam at all, what his coworkers are saying is pretty much on par. Where did you got that idea?.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, as I stated previously, I don't feel comfortable forming opinions about how other cultures run themselves when I have literally no personal experience with the situations and the only information I'm forced to run off of comes from media, hearsay, and some guy who was willing to assume the absolute worst of me without even bothering to ask for clarification first.

With that in mind, it's impossible not to have some opinion. I won't be airing it though, as I'm sure anything I could say would come from a very ignorant place.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Well, as I stated previously, I don't feel comfortable forming opinions about how other cultures run themselves when I have literally no personal experience with the situations and the only information I'm forced to run off of comes from media, hearsay, and some guy who was willing to assume the absolute worst of me without even bothering to ask for clarification first.

With that in mind, it's impossible not to have some opinion. I won't be airing it though, as I'm sure anything I could say would come from a very ignorant place.

tl;dr - She knows when to keep her opinions to herself, which some others could learn from.
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Eiden



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is absolutely possible and certainly appropriate to use data and collected social testimonial in order to analyze the situation for women in India. Especially considering that India is a crazy sexist and pretty corrupt country. The only thing that has really changed is that before there was a large degree by which Indian women were kept nice and quiet and their problems invisibled by the system, so that most people did not have to know or concern themselves with the situation imposed on typical Indian women.

Now, they feel empowered enough to mobilize and assemble against it both in demonstration and in greater legal challenge, so it starts to come to light more sensationally.

But yeah, let's just stare down a horrible story in detail, brosis.

Quote:
A year ago Usha Narayane was about to embark on a new life. A call-centre worker with a diploma in hotel management, she was 25 and about to travel north from her home in the centre of India to begin a managerial job in a hotel in Punjab. The job would transport her not only geographically but also socially.
Like her neighbours, Narayane is a dalit, an "untouchable", at the bottom of the caste ladder. Schooling and literacy are rare among the women of Kasturba Nagar, the slum neighbourhood in the city of Nagpur where she grew up. She was unmarried, preferring to work and study. Yet nobody resented her success. Instead, they had high hopes for the girl. But Narayane went nowhere. Today, she is in her family's one-room, windowless home, awaiting trial for murder.

At 3pm on August 13 2004, Akku Yadav was lynched by a mob of around 200 women from Kasturba Nagar. It took them 15 minutes to hack to death the man they say raped them with impunity for more than a decade. Chilli powder was thrown in his face and stones hurled. As he flailed and fought, one of his alleged victims hacked off his penis with a vegetable knife. A further 70 stab wounds were left on his body. The incident was made all the more extraordinary by its setting. Yadav was murdered not in the dark alleys of the slum, but on the shiny white marble floor of Nagpur district court.

Laughed at and abused by the police when they reported being raped by Yadav, the women took the law into their own hands. A local thug, Yadav and his gang had terrorised the 300 families of Kasturba Nagar for more than a decade, barging into homes demanding money, shouting threats and abuse.

Residents say he murdered at least three neighbours and dumped their bodies on railway tracks. They had reported his crimes to the police dozens of times. Each time he was arrested, he was granted bail.

But it was rape that Yadav used to break and humiliate the community. A rape victim lives in every other house in the slum, say the residents of Kasturba Nagar. He violated women to control men, ordering his henchmen to drag even girls as young as 12 to a nearby derelict building to be gang-raped.

In India, even to admit to being raped is taboo, yet dozens of Yadav's victims reported the crime. But the 32-year-old was never charged with rape. Instead, the women say, the police would tell him who had made the reports and he would come after them. According to residents, the police were hand-in-glove with Yadav: he fed the local officers bribes and drink, and they protected him.

When one 22-year-old reported being raped by Yadav, the police accused her of having an affair with him and sent her away. Several others were sent away after being told: "You're a loose woman. That's why he raped you."

Nagpur is counted among India's fastest-growing cities. Yet the experience of the women of Kasturba Nagar is a parallel tale of how everyday life in India's back streets is stuck in the past. Splashed across the country's news- papers, the gory image of Yadav's blood on the courtroom floor was a lesson in the consequences of a state unable to protect the weak and the vulnerable.

After Yadav's murder, powerful voices were raised supporting the lynch mob. Prominent lawyers issued a statement saying the women should not be treated as the accused, but as the victims. One retired high court judge even congratulated the women. "In the circumstances they underwent, they were left with no alternative but to finish Akku. The women repeatedly pleaded with the police for their security. But the police failed to protect them," said Justice Bhau Vahane.

Two weeks before the lynching, Yadav came to Narayane's house on several successive days, threatening to throw acid on her and rape her. He targeted her, she says, because she was outspoken and her brother-in-law, a lawyer, had verbally stood up to Yadav. "He raped only poor people whom he thought wouldn't go and tell, or if they did, wouldn't be listened to. But he made a big mistake in threatening me. People felt that if I were attacked, no woman would ever be safe."

Although Narayane has been charged with Yadav's murder, she claims she was not at the court when it took place but in the slum collecting signatures for a mass complaint against him. Among the charges levelled against her are some of India's most serious offences, including "anti- nationalist" crimes amounting to treason. "The cops say I planned the murder; that I started it. They have to make someone a scapegoat," she says. She believes she has been singled out because she has been the police's most vociferous critic. Her education gave her the confidence that inspired the community to act, she says.

In the week before the lynching, people started to talk about taking action against Yadav. He disappeared, sensing boiling anger. Narayane and her brother-in-law bypassed the local officers and went straight to the deputy commissioner. He gave the family a safe house for a night and promised to search for him.

On August 6, hundreds of residents smashed his empty house to rubble. By evening they heard Yadav had "surrendered" and was in custody. "The police had said he would be in danger if he came back. They suggested he surrender into their care for his own safety."

The next day he was due to appear at the city's district court and 500 slum residents gathered. As Yadav arrived, one of his henchmen tried to pass him knives wrapped in a blanket under the noses of the police. After the women protested, the accomplice was arrested and Yadav taken back into custody, but not before he threatened to return and teach every woman in the slum a lesson.

Hearing that Yadav was likely to get bail yet again, when he returned to court, the women decided to act. "It was not calculated," Narayane says. "It was not a case that we all sat down and calmly planned what would happen. It was an emotional outburst. The women decided that, if necessary, they'd go to prison, but that this man would never come back and terrorise them."

On the day of Yadav's hearing, 200 women came to the court armed with vegetable knives and chilli powder. As he walked in, Yadav spotted one of the women he had raped. He called her a prostitute and threatened to repeat the crime against her. The police laughed. She took off her sandal and began to hit him, shouting, "We can't both live on this Earth together. It's you or me."

It was a rallying cry to an incensed mob. Soon, he was being attacked on all sides. Knives were drawn and the two terrified officers guarding him ran away. Within 15 minutes, Yadav was dead on the courthouse floor. But his death has not brought the women peace. Five were immediately arrested, then released following a demonstration across the city. Now every woman living in the slum has claimed responsibility for the murder. They say no one person can take the blame: they have told the police to arrest them all.

But it is Narayane who is in limbo as she waits for her case to be heard. "After the murder, society's eyes opened: the police's failings came to light. That has irritated them. The police see me as a catalyst for the exposure and want to nip it in the bud."

They face a fight. Narayane is loudly unrepentant. "I'm not scared. I'm not ashamed," she says. "We've done a good thing for society. We will see whether society repays us".


Yeah.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So okay, tell me what I can do to help these people, yeah? Tell me what I can do, sitting literally halfway across the world, with neither money nor status.

What can I possibly do that isn't condescending as hell, sitting on a high horse telling some other culture what to do with themselves?

She is literally talking about a society that I am not a part of. One that I can't even touch.

If somebody from India came up to me and said "Look, this is the situation, what's your opinion?" then I would gladly give it.* But that just hasn't happened yet. Until it does, it's pretty damned presumptuous of me to assume my opinion even matters.

*I'm not convinced it would be useful anyway? I don't know very much about local politics let alone foreign ones.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.giveindia.org/t-help-women-india.aspx
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have a lot of money.

But I have some.

It'll have to do, I guess.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the donations are in rupees. its something like 18 bucks per thousand rupees.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
I don't have a lot of money.

But I have some.

It'll have to do, I guess.

Not to mention you can inform other people:
"Hey, did you guys her about those Indian riots? No? Well let me tell you, it's some messed up shit . . ." And maybe if some of the people in turn share the story and they in turn share some more, and some of those donate, suddenly, you've made a much bigger impact.

Also, what I said about your other comment wasn't necessarily concerning other people in this thread, or even this thread specifically.
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