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2013-01-20: Gender Programming
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10592
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Society raised me to be a Christian and failed miserably. It doesn't have the power to choose what I am. It only has the power to slightly suggest me to do stuff.

Humans are all unique and they have the choice about what they believe. The mind of a human is incredibly complex and unpredictable. To say that society is able to mold them at will is just insulting.

And yet I bet you're more similar to the average member of your society than you are to, let's say someone from mainland China or North Korea, in terms of things like how you view your family, response to authority, individualism versus collectivism, etc. Why would you think that might be?
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Last edited by Dogen on Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3269

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Surely you'll back this up with something other than your gut feelings, perhaps reference a degree in some field of study relevant to your position? Perhaps a link to some sort of peer reviewed paper?


Sorry, I supposed it was obvious enough to not needed.


Wrong stance on this forum brah, things that are "obvious enough not to need backing up with something more than saying "its obvious" are usually horseshit.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1017

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Wrong stance on this forum brah, things that are "obvious enough not to need backing up with something more than saying "its obvious" are usually horseshit.


Sad You make me sad by not reading the other two paragraphs.

Dogen wrote:
And yet I bet you're more similar to the average member of your society than you are to, let's say someone from mainland China or North Korea, in terms of things like how you view your family, response to authority, individualism versus collectivism, etc. Why would you think that might be?


Good question! I believe that a good answer is "because they are amoral dictatorships"

That was mostly kidding, though. I know that it's not the point you were trying to make. However, now that we are at politics, something that people do, regardless of their beliefs, is follow rules. If the rules of my country were tomorrow similar to the Chinese or North Korean ones, I would probably follow them. I'm not a revolutionary by any means, but if that happens I still would have the personal freedom to believe in what I want, even if I can't externalize it.

And while we are at that, this is the exact reason why North Korean mandataries are so fucking scared of exposing their people to new ideas. They aren't idiots. They know that in order to make people believe in them they have to alienate them from choices. And that's fucking sad but true.

Men and women of western civilizations today run with the advantage of finding choices in five minutes of Google.
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lol



Joined: 16 Nov 2012
Posts: 136

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:

And while we are at that, this is the exact reason why North Korean mandataries are so fucking scared of exposing their people to new ideas. They aren't idiots. They know that in order to make people believe in them they have to alienate them from choices. And that's fucking sad but true.

I actually had a whole response typed up to your larger post, then I read this.

It's so weird. Do you not see the parallels between what you just said and the comic strip? It's like you totally understand the point based on what you said there, but are railing against it just for the sake of arguing against feminists.

Are you a contrarian?


Last edited by lol on Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:51 am; edited 5 times in total
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 5163
Location: No.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:

Heretical Rants wrote:
Maybe 'Nique just didn't feel that all that was healthy for a young girl. Some things can be quite damaging, especially if you're only exposed to one perspective.


I'll redirect you to panels 9 to 13. This comic is about what a young girl believes and becomes when exposed to social influence. Getting something else out of this is valid, but that was the strip's message


No, it's about imagery and ideals that young girls are exposed to, not about what they actually become. And then the Sisterhood comes and offers a different perspective.
Leohan wrote:

Society raised me to be a Christian and failed miserably.


Where one part of society failed in making you Christian, another part of society succeeded in making you otherwise, or at the very least in letting you know that there was an alternative. Like lol said, I'm seeing a parallel to the Sisterhood here.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol wrote:
Leohan wrote:

And while we are at that, this is the exact reason why North Korean mandataries are so fucking scared of exposing their people to new ideas. They aren't idiots. They know that in order to make people believe in them they have to alienate them from choices. And that's fucking sad but true.

I actually had a whole response typed up to your larger post, then I read this.

It's so weird. Do you not see the parallels between what you just said and the comic strip? It's like you totally understand the point based on what you said there, but are railing against it just for the sake of arguing against feminists.


I was fully aware of the problem with that sentence. Yes. Some people lack freedom of choice. We do what we learn, and not learning some stuff hinders our freedoms due to ignorance. If we want to focus solely in North Korea, well I bet that some of the people there know what their problem is, but can't externalize it because, well... That's unwise.

That society is out of my area of comfort, though, so let's focus on ours: We do have freedom of choice, and can choose to be and feel whatever we want. If you want to assimilate new ideas you can feel free to go to the library and there choose if you feel those ideas accommodate to your needs.

Heretical Rants wrote:

Leohan wrote:

Society raised me to be a Christian and failed miserably.


Where one part of society failed in making you Christian, another part of society succeeded in making you otherwise, or at the very least in letting you know that there was an alternative. I'm seeing a parallel to the Sisterhood here.


Wow... That's an excellent argument, no kidding. I've been trying to find an appropriate response to it.

I guess that my original idea that society is unable to shape us at will had an excellent counterpoint in the very comic. I still think that as humans we are mentally more powerful than the influences we have, but bravo. Claps

lol wrote:
Are you a contrarian?


Yup. Being the devil's advocate is both fun and educational. While I know fully that society does have an influence over us, I still want to point out that there are flaws in this processing thought.

As pointed above, though, that's not the reason for that sentence, which has a perfectly logical explanation.
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's good to make each other think, yup yup
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Cactuar



Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
It was the same when I was growing up. I asked if it was okay if I played with dolls along with my action figures, since most boys seem to never do that. They said it's your choice, and no one has control over you when it comes to those decisions.


I think you're kind of demonstrating the point here.

Why would you ask?

Why would you have to ask if it was OK to play with dolls if it wasn't for all the messages you were getting that strongly suggested it wasn't?

I never once asked if it was OK to play with dolls. I was showered with fucking dolls. I was encouraged to play with dolls, expected to play with dolls. I will go out on an anecdotal limb and wager that most individuals who were perceived as girls growing up in our culture also never doubted whether they "should" play with dolls or not.

And that's the point.

You lucked out and got parents that gave you a decent answer to that, but have you see, for example those hidden camera vids of the moms in the Halloween aisle reacting to the little girl who wanted to be Spiderman? That it is not OK to do "wrong" gendered things is implicitly and explicitly reinforced by both media and individuals policing others' gender.
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War_Junky_91



Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 7
Location: Indiana

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know this comic has struck a nerve with quite a few people like it has me. And thats not really because of the comic itself, but the feminism behind it.

This particular comic is right at the line between the normal feminism line of "you dont have to fit the mold" and the crazy feminism line of "you can not be anything like a traditional female." I am willing to bet the author is trying to convey the former but it can come off as the latter. And a lot of that can come from the interpritation by the reader based on their expriences, like mine for example.

My wife is femenazi kryptonite. She WANTS to be a stay at home mom. She WANTS ten kids. And she takes offense with the femenist argument: "Men just want woman to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen." Because that is not what I want its what she wants. And trust me, my wife is in no way, shape, or form a pushover, she is going to do what she wants to do, not what someone else wants her to do.

We both feel so strongly about this we actually counter-protested a feminist rally. She had a sign that said "I choose to be a stay at home wife of my own free will" and i had a sign that said "I support her choices." The amount of vitriol and hate we got was insane. I got accused of everything from rape to brainwashing to kidnapping. But they were ten times more pissed at my wife than at me. They accused her of being brain damaged, brain washed, told her she was a horrible person, she was a pathetic excuse for a woman, and things like that, most of it a lot more vulgar than i have written here.

So when someone like me reads this comic and i see it through the lens of my own experiences i get the femenazi tones from it and not the free choice femenist tones he probably wanted.
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Holocauxt



Joined: 18 May 2012
Posts: 348

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That makes me wonder: what do we (the readers) see with regards to Tat's stance on Feminism? War Junky is probably right with the "normal/modest" feminism of the comics, but what do most of us interpret?

Remember: there are modest, charismatic, and fanatic views regarding these beliefs. Maybe we can take a vote.
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Succubus1982



Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 919
Location: England

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Magenta wrote:

I COULD KISS YOU RIGHT NOW, AT LEAST SOMEONE FUCKING GETS IT.


Okay, but the boys might get excited Laughing
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Bart



Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 1572

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

War_Junky_91 wrote:
I know this comic has struck a nerve with quite a few people like it has me. And thats not really because of the comic itself, but the feminism behind it.

This particular comic is right at the line between the normal feminism line of "you dont have to fit the mold" and the crazy feminism line of "you can not be anything like a traditional female." I am willing to bet the author is trying to convey the former but it can come off as the latter. And a lot of that can come from the interpritation by the reader based on their expriences, like mine for example.

My wife is femenazi kryptonite. She WANTS to be a stay at home mom. She WANTS ten kids. And she takes offense with the femenist argument: "Men just want woman to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen." Because that is not what I want its what she wants. And trust me, my wife is in no way, shape, or form a pushover, she is going to do what she wants to do, not what someone else wants her to do.

We both feel so strongly about this we actually counter-protested a feminist rally. She had a sign that said "I choose to be a stay at home wife of my own free will" and i had a sign that said "I support her choices." The amount of vitriol and hate we got was insane. I got accused of everything from rape to brainwashing to kidnapping. But they were ten times more pissed at my wife than at me. They accused her of being brain damaged, brain washed, told her she was a horrible person, she was a pathetic excuse for a woman, and things like that, most of it a lot more vulgar than i have written here.

So when someone like me reads this comic and i see it through the lens of my own experiences i get the femenazi tones from it and not the free choice femenist tones he probably wanted.


If true, you met feminists that take it too far. However, have you considered you and your wife didn't get those reactions because your wife is a stay at home mother, but because you were there as counter-protesters. Basically you were saying "We are happy with the wife staying at home, so you should be happy with that too".
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Holocauxt



Joined: 18 May 2012
Posts: 348

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Succubus1982 wrote:
Miss Magenta wrote:

I COULD KISS YOU RIGHT NOW, AT LEAST SOMEONE FUCKING GETS IT.


Okay, but the boys might get excited Laughing


...

...lemme get the camera ready. One sec...
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 3042

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maynar wrote:
Ronald wrote:
It mildly bemuses me how some people get so het up that they seem to forget that what we're seeing isn't the political belief system of an actual feminist organization. It's what one guy wrote and drew. These characters can't do or say or think anything that Tat doesn't decide for them -- doesn't command them -- to do and say and think.

Glossy's Sisterhood doesn't actually exist, okay? Get ahold of yourselves, people.

Sheesh.

On another note: Could what we're seeing on the screen be The Life of Fuchsia? That looks more like her than like any other known Devil Girl.


This forum needs a "Like" button. +1 for Ronald.


Thanks, I needed that. Smile
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 3042

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

War_Junky_91 wrote:
I know this comic has struck a nerve with quite a few people like it has me. And thats not really because of the comic itself, but the feminism behind it.


Yes, the feminism of the one man who wrote and drew the comic. What you see is his perspective as a unique individual, and no one else's. And, really, we don't even know if it's really how he feels or if it's just a perspective that he made up for his characters to feel.

I just think it might help if people kept that more in mind, that's all.
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