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Ethical Dilemmas
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Will you play the game?
Yes
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No
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Total Votes : 6

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Mikewee777



Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 527
Location: 0_0

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:02 am    Post subject: Ethical Dilemmas Reply with quote

Feel free to introduce your own scenarios and personal answers if you are brave enough [I wasn't brave enough to answer them].

Answer with [+] or [-]
____
[Murderer]
1. A runaway boxcar is about to run over

five people walking on the tracks. A

railroad worker is standing next to a

switch that can turn the boxcar onto a side

track, killing one person, but allowing the

five to survive. Flipping the switch is

______.

[Harvester]
2. Five people have just been rushed into a

hospital in critical condition, each

requiring an organ to survive. There is not

enough time to request organs from outside

the hospital, but there is a healthy person

in the hospital's waiting room. If the

surgeon takes this person's organs, he will

die, but the five in critical care will

survive. Taking the healthy person's organs

is _______.

[Patriot]
3. A runaway boxcar is about to run over

five foreign people trapped on the tracks.

A railroad worker is standing next to a

switch that can turn the boxcar onto a side

track, killing one person you know and love

that is tied to the tracks, but allows the

five foreigners to survive. Flipping the

switch is ______.

[Hero]
4. You are one of the potential victims of

one of these three scenarios above but you

carry a means of stopping them in advance

but it causes their death. Would you want

to know who is reponsible for moving you

into harm's way so that you could save

yourself?
______.

[God]
5. You are a deity and you forget who is
good and who is bad. Do you still have
a hell for them if it means that someone
innocent will end up there wrongfully?
______.
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suds



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate you so much.
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 11871
Location: Unknown Kaddath

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Consider the following case:

A brain in a vat on Twin Earth is at the wheel of a runaway trolley. There are only two options that the brain can take: the right side of the fork in the track or the left side of the fork. There is no way in sight of derailing or stopping the trolley and the brain is aware of this, for the brain knows trolleys. The brain is causally hooked up to the trolley such that the brain can determine the course which the trolley will take.

On the right side of the track there is a single railroad worker, Jones, who will definitely be killed if the brain steers the trolley to the right. If the railman on the right lives, he will go on to kill five men for the sake of killing them, but in doing so will inadvertently save the lives of thirty orphans (one of the five men he will kill is planning to destroy a bridge that the orphan's bus will be crossing later that night). One of the orphans that will be killed would have grown up to become a tyrant who would make good utilitarian men do bad things. Another of the orphans would grow up to become G.E.M. Anscombe, while a third would invent the pop-top can.

If the brain in the vat chooses the left side of the track, the trolley will definitely hit and kill a railman on the left side of the track, "Leftie" and will hit and destroy ten beating hearts on the track that could (and would) have been transplanted into ten patients in the local hospital that will die without donor hearts. These are the only hearts available, and the brain is aware of this, for the brain knows hearts. If the railman on the left side of the track lives, he too will kill five men, in fact the same five that the railman on the right would kill. However, "Leftie" will kill the five as an unintended consequence of saving ten men: he will inadvertently kill the five men rushing the ten hearts to the local hospital for transplantation. A further result of "Leftie's" act would be that the busload of orphans will be spared. Among the five men killed by "Leftie" are both the man responsible for putting the brain at the controls of the trolley, and the author of this example. If the ten hearts and "Leftie" are killed by the trolley, the ten prospective heart-transplant patients will die and their kidneys will be used to save the lives of twenty kidney-transplant patients, one of whom will grow up to cure cancer, and one of whom will grow up to be Hitler. There are other kidneys and dialysis machines available, however the brain does not know kidneys, and this is not a factor.

Assume that the brain's choice, whatever it turns out to be, will serve as an example to other brains-in-vats and so the effects of his decision will be amplified. Also assume that if the brain chooses the right side of the fork, an unjust war free of war crimes will ensue, while if the brain chooses the left fork, a just war fraught with war crimes will result. Furthermore, there is an intermittently active Cartesian demon deceiving the brain in such a manner that the brain is never sure if it is being deceived.

QUESTION: What should the brain do?

[ALTERNATIVE EXAMPLE: Same as above, except the brain has had a commisurotomy, and the left half of the brain is a consequentialist and the right side is an absolutist.]
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Mikewee777



Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 527
Location: 0_0

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone has something to blame because they are unwilling to look inside of themselves. They want a scapegoat that makes them look better by comparison. That's why soldiers and deities are revered. They do what we are too scared to do ourselves.
I see the everything in me. Good and evil. You can live in what you have seen. All of it... Right down to peaks you haven't touched yet, dreams you haven't dreamed, and worlds you haven't controlled. The mind is endless. You put me in a dark, solitary cell and to you that's the end. To me... that's the beginning. There's a universe in there. The universe is in a box. In that box, I am free.

suds wrote:
I hate you so much.


You hold me accountable and frees yourself from any liability and this allows you to make sexy friends with people who dislike me also.

You win and they love you for it.
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Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10877
Location: hiding the decline.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't hate you for the thread, I hate you for the formatting of your post.
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Mikewee777



Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 527
Location: 0_0

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Quote:
[url=http://home

.sprynet.com/~owl1/trolley.htm]Consider the

following case[/url]:

A brain in a vat on Twin Earth is at the wheel of

a runaway trolley. There are only two options that

the brain can take: the right side of the fork in

the track or the left side of the fork. There is

no way in sight of derailing or stopping the

trolley and the brain is aware of this, for the

brain knows trolleys. The brain is causally hooked

up to the trolley such that the brain can

determine the course which the trolley will take.

On the right side of the track there is a single

railroad worker, Jones, who will definitely be

killed if the brain steers the trolley to the

right. If the railman on the right lives, he will

go on to kill five men for the sake of killing

them, but in doing so will inadvertently save the

lives of thirty orphans (one of the five men he

will kill is planning to destroy a bridge that the

orphan's bus will be crossing later that night).

One of the orphans that will be killed would have

grown up to become a tyrant who would make good

utilitarian men do bad things. Another of the

orphans would grow up to become G.E.M. Anscombe,

while a third would invent the pop-top can.

If the brain in the vat chooses the left side of

the track, the trolley will definitely hit and

kill a railman on the left side of the track,

"Leftie" and will hit and destroy ten beating

hearts on the track that could (and would) have

been transplanted into ten patients in the local

hospital that will die without donor hearts. These

are the only hearts available, and the brain is

aware of this, for the brain knows hearts. If the

rail-man on the left side of the track lives, he

too will kill five men, in fact the same five that

the railman on the right would kill. However,

"Leftie" will kill the five as an unintended

consequence of saving ten men: he will

inadvertently kill the five men rushing the ten

hearts to the local hospital for transplantation.

A further result of "Leftie's" act would be that

the busload of orphans will be spared. Among the

five men killed by "Leftie" are both the man

responsible for putting the brain at the controls

of the trolley, and the author of this example. If

the ten hearts and "Leftie" are killed by the

trolley, the ten prospective heart-transplant

patients will die and their kidneys will be used

to save the lives of twenty kidney-transplant

patients, one of whom will grow up to cure cancer,

and one of whom will grow up to be Hitler. There

are other kidneys and dialysis machines available,

however the brain does not know kidneys, and this

is not a factor.

Assume that the brain's choice, whatever it turns

out to be, will serve as an example to other

brains-in-vats and so the effects of his decision

will be amplified. Also assume that if the brain

chooses the right side of the fork, an unjust war

free of war crimes will ensue, while if the brain

chooses the left fork, a just war fraught with war

crimes will result. Furthermore, there is an

intermittently active Cartesian demon deceiving

the brain in such a manner that the brain is never

sure if it is being deceived.

QUESTION: What should the brain do?

[ALTERNATIVE EXAMPLE: Same as above, except the

brain has had a commisurotomy, and the left half

of the brain is a consequentialist and the right

side is an absolutist.]

___________
Disclaimer:
Anything that either of us say could be

mis-interpreted.
English language has many double-messages.
"Sherlock saw the man using binoculars".
Who was holding the binoculars?
The sentence is so vague and so poorly punctuated,

that either of them could be the user of said

object. That is the danger that is faced by going

by outdated instructions from a re-translated

language.
_____________
My brave solution:

We have to remember that we aren't saving
lives here, we are only delaying deaths.
No one here is immortal but I will make them
immortal.

Naturally, the first thing the brain is going
to do is attempt to go in reverse tapping
the break in this planet's version of "binary"
or "Morse code" to carve a "rumble strip" to point

out that it is not responsible, who is the one who

put him here.and how to not allow this to be

"serve(d) as an example" to young, naive brains to

do wrong because of it being a tradition. This
will also double as a alert to both sides and
the station to what is wrong if horn honking
is impossible.
[I was giving easy questions by comparison,
if you get to cheat, so can I.]
This original author clearly loves his own
imagined perception of Godwin's Hitler and so the

brain, if it had control [which it doesn't] would

be forced to turn left thus saving a larger amount

of identifiable people despite the fact
that these wars don't have death tolls listed.
But it doesn't matter because this story didn't
state the what the train can and can't do,
therefore it is capable of flying straight up
as it teleports out of everyone's harm's way as
it's doing this controversial"left turn".
It might even start spinning and accidentally
cause some butterflies to orgasm in a shockwave
so great that this "Twin earth" notices.
_____________
Reason why the brain has no control:
In neurosurgery, a commissurotomy may be performed

to sever the corpus callosum; doing so has been

used in cases of severe epilepsy to prevent the

two hemispheres of the brain communicating, thus

restraining the epilepsy to one hemisphere.
Well, which side has epilepsy? Are seisures

possible? Does it make my choice irrelivant

because of the brain damage? Is Jazz like
pudding and film? Or do we not know what the
Jazz is all about? The brain never had control.
_____________
>implications everywhere.
Well, assuming that magic is real, brains in jars

are self-sustaining [but not eternally],
hearts can beat without assistance [what?],

because Hitler isn't born yet [but not to live

eternally] we can safely state that this train

can't go faster than 12 miles per hour due to the

constraints of technology at the time .
Why is it called "twin earth"? Is it about to

collide with something else? How soon?
"What are the counter-factual conditionals which

ground the existence of objects true in virtue

of?"
_____________
Why is the right first? Are you some sort of

Extremist Racist Conservative? If you are going
to be like this, you might as well added some
passenger Jews to this train while you were at it.

R=kills "jones" kills 15 saves 30 but good causes

"bad-war" and no Hitler,
spares the one who put the brain at control
kills a Cat-holic philosophist [who is addicted to

kittens ] and potentially prevents soda?
How many brains are killed by soda?
brain still doesn't know kidneys, but he's not

drunk.
[There is a historical inaccuracy here,
Non-Hitler, despite being clean and a meat-eater
did good things.War crimes did not happen.
Also he was unable to save Jews from

self-inflicted cancer caused by cigarettes]
_____________
Final summary:

Why is the Left have no name? Are you some sort of

Extremist Racist Conservative? If you are going
to be like this, you might as well added some
passenger Jews to this train while you were at it.

L=kills "lefty" kills 15 saves 50 but causes

"good-war" and Hitler
kills the one who put the brain at control
kills the author of this example?
brain still doesn't know kidneys, but he's
not drunk.How many brains are not killed by soda?
[There is a historical inaccuracy here,
Hitler, despite being drugged and a vegan
did bad things.War crimes did happen.
Also he was able to save Jews from self-inflicted

cancer caused by cigarettes]
____________
Demanding that an evolutionist evolve instantly,

is the equivalent to demanding that a creationist

die and then come back to life within 3 days.Why

would anyone even need assistance in the first

part if they are already the walking brain-dead?
_____________
Bible verse lists justifying my choices:
It's strange that it's a demon making it happen

and not God.
2nd Thesselonians 2:11 "And... God shall send

them strong delusion,
that they should believe a lie. That they all

might be damned who believed not the
truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness".
Let's also consider the religious law on what a

"War-crime" is.
Deuteronomy 20:10-12
Deuteronomy 20:19-20
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
Sura Al-Baqara 2:190-193
Clearly I'm a saint by comparison.
_____________
Famous quote:
_____________

If your deity is infinitely good, what reason

should we have to fear defying his desires?

If infinity wise, why do we still have doubts

about the future?

If he still knows all, why warn of our needs and

fatigue him with our prayers?

If he is everywhere, why erect idolic temples to

him?

If He is just, why punish the creatures he created

weak?

If reasonable, how can he be angry at those who

are blind?

If he is inconceivable, why do we give our deity a

identity and history?

If he has truely spoken, why does he need

evangelists to convince us?

If he is a God of peace, why would he promise

immortality to a devout warrior?

If he truly loves children, why would he tell a

soldier to sacrifice his daughter ?

-Percy Bysshe Shelly 1792
___________
TL;DR? OK->
Is war ever really "good" or "bad"?
Snorri wrote:

As for "Snorri": If I had a YES/NO on my poll, it would take up to 720 different selection options or 5 different polls, causing the forum to be flooded with these when one is good enough.
Please show me a linked example of how I should format my posts in the future. I didn't mean to offend anyone with my formatting. I didn't even
make the + and - sign that big. Also no one even used them in their response to my unanswered paradoxes. So No harm, no foul. It's now obvious that you are just being angry just to be angry. I hope you enjoyed yourself. If you didn't, you aren't fapping hard enough and that's something that I don't want to know that I had anything to do with.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3714
Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, seriously, what the fuck are you typing this all on?
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Mikewee777



Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 527
Location: 0_0

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
yeah, seriously, what the fuck are you typing this all on?


A old 64bit Turion laptop using free hospital wi-fi running Windows XP and typed out on Notepad before being copied and pasted onto here. As you can tell, the formatting got messed up. I will not go into the details of my health or the amount of free-time I have because that will alter how people who hate me feel. The more that they believe that I am suffering,the happier they will be. Who am I to try to take away that happiness?

I hope the audience is enjoying this show. It's too bad I'm not getting paid.
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Canopus



Joined: 13 Sep 2010
Posts: 623

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With word wrap off?
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 5896
Location: California

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, i don't hate you for your post, or for its formatting

i hate you just the way you are

C:
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3714
Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikewee777 wrote:
Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
yeah, seriously, what the fuck are you typing this all on?


A old 64bit Turion laptop using free hospital wi-fi running Windows XP and typed out on Notepad before being copied and pasted onto here. As you can tell, the formatting got messed up. I will not go into the details of my health or the amount of free-time I have because that will alter how people who hate me feel. The more that they believe that I am suffering,the happier they will be. Who am I to try to take away that happiness?

I hope the audience is enjoying this show. It's too bad I'm not getting paid.


they need to up your morphine.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10421
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is why they invented the preview button.

Also, I can tell you statistically which answer people are more likely to choose for all of Mikewee's questions (because they're all variations on the Trolley problem, and it's been studied).

Personally, I like this one:

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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 4499
Location: No.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
well, i don't hate you for your post, or for its formatting

i hate you just the way you are

C:


That's so sweet! We should all tell each other how much we hate each other more often.
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Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10636

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So Nelly Furtado says the songs on her first album were too intellectual, but luckily she's moved away from that.
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Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10877
Location: hiding the decline.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
This is why they invented the preview button.

Also, I can tell you statistically which answer people are more likely to choose for all of Mikewee's questions (because they're all variations on the Trolley problem, and it's been studied).

Personally, I like this one:


Ooh I like it.
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