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10 Feb 2013 - Fembot
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Yer misunderstanding me. What we're talking about, as I see it, already is assuming Rule 34 is in effect; it's more of a moral analysis of Rule 34.

Ah; my apologies.

Darqcyde wrote:
We're trying to be seriously retarded here.

(\me glances back over the preceding 38 pages)
I anticipate our glorious and overwhelming success soon.
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diagram12345



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, this progressed quickly.
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Yer misunderstanding me. What we're talking about, as I see it, already is assuming Rule 34 is in effect; it's more of a moral analysis of Rule 34.

We're trying to be seriously retarded here.


"A Moral Analysis Of Rule 34 And It's Impact On The Internet" is now going to be the title of my research paper I have to do by the end of the year.
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:
"A Moral Analysis Of Rule 34 And It's Impact On The Internet" is now going to be the title of my research paper I have to do by the end of the year.

I almost feel sorry for the prof who has to read that. (BTW: "Its" as a possessive does not have an apostrophe; only "it's" as a contraction uses the apostrophe. I don't know how your prof is in such regards, but some of the ones I had, back in the day, would drop the student a whole letter grade for a grammar infraction. Good luck with the paper! Post it here, too, please, so we can compare it with Dennis' script about a sentient toaster's unrequited love.)
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry about double-posting, but, upon re-reading much of the thread (and laughing myself sick in the process!), I encountered what seems to be an intriguing proposition. Either Rothide, or the opposing camp of, well, damn-near everybody else, ...or both (I'm not entirely certain of the difference, any longer), made a statement that I'll paraphrase as:
Someone or other wrote:
Culture, whether fictitious or real, is what determines what actions are creepy.

A moderately long and rather eventful life has taught me that such moral absolutism is extremely difficult to defend. Just among the contributors to this forum, we can't even agree on what constitutes murder and when, if ever, the taking of another life may be justified; attempting to delineate something as inherently subjective as "creepiness" will prove, I'm certain, to be a task many orders of magnitude more difficult than defining murder. Including the possibility of fictional cultures defining "creepiness" will simply make the problem greater by allowing any society imaginable to come under consideration instead of limiting the matter to only those human societies that can be empirically observed.

That said, I'd like to ask if, first, I've correctly caught the gist of whatever argument was made regarding culture and creepiness, and, second, whether there are those who truly believe that position is defensible?
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Louis Rude



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Rothide



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might I say in my defense I only brought up a fictitious sentient toaster that remembered every time it had to make toast for someone, and hated making toast.

I was mostly trying to illustrate that it's kind of a silly notion to think that a robot would become sentient and thinking when brought into the reality zone, and that to expect it to do anything else but its primary function, and more so not actually wanting to do what it is supposed to do, is also stupid. To me the fembot was just a machine, much like a toaster, and slick trying to control it was well withing logical reason. He had no knowledge of the sudden sentience, and as such trying to control her shouldn't be held against him.

Most however decided it wasn't the same thing since you can't have a relationship with a toaster. I counter that as you can't really have a relationship with a fem bot either, and believing you can is just as creepy as using one.

I've been thinking of this comic, and have finally decided I don't care what the higher/deeper message is. The simplest one is, Slick's life sucks and the feminists actively make that so. Whether to make him realize it or just to rub salt in the wound is up for debate.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louis Rude: a guy who can't even make a point without first putting words in someone else's mouth. You belong in this god forsaken thread.
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Sojobo



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
I counter that as you can't really have a relationship with a fem bot either, and believing you can is just as creepy as using one.

How can you claim this is: 1) yours, when it's actually what everyone else has been saying all along? and: 2) a counterargument, when it is actually in total agreement with what everyone else has been saying all along, by virtue of actually being what everyone else has been saying all along?
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

O-kay, Rothide, but what I'm more interested in is how we're defining creepy, and not really so much in the issue of whether marital relations with appliances--be they designed for that task or not--are "creepy" by the definition of creepy at which we arrive.

That word "creepy" got tossed around quite a lot, with a seemingly tacit assumption that everyone agreed on what it meant. And then came the surprising statement, "Culture defines creepiness," along with many allusions to the principal that D-man controls enough aspects of Sinfestia's culture as to be able to force upon others his own standards for what is and is not creepy, as suits his corporate and material goals of the moment.

Let us set aside, for now, sentient toasters and fembots following their programming (I'm certain they'll intrude again, very soon); I don't see them as essentially relevant to the question raised by the proposed intertwining of culture and creepiness. I have a dark and boding faith, though, that my fellow Sinfesters will soon prove me mistaken in that assumption.

It is that statement, "Culture defines creepiness," that piqued my interest. Does it? Does creepiness derive from shared cultural values? Or, is creepiness a subjective matter, differing from one individual to the next and depending greatly upon his or her experience and ethics for its definition? Or could it be an admixture of both, culturally shaped, but individually defined?
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing that bothers me about that remake of the comic is the addition of "cis scum."

For one thing, it doesn't even make sense in that context...

oh, and "dykes"



@bitflipper
I say "creepy" but really I mean "morally unsettling"
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it's proper to say that society can define "creepy" in any other sense, either, though. People are going to be skeeved out by certain things regardless of what society says about them. Certainly society has a heavy influence over what is considered the "norm" and even over general attitudes towards things, but I don't think it's meaningful to consider that to actually define creepiness.
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Rothide



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitflipper wrote:
O-kay, Rothide, but what I'm more interested in is how we're defining creepy, and not really so much in the issue of whether marital relations with appliances--be they designed for that task or not--are "creepy" by the definition of creepy at which we arrive.

That word "creepy" got tossed around quite a lot, with a seemingly tacit assumption that everyone agreed on what it meant. And then came the surprising statement, "Culture defines creepiness," along with many allusions to the principal that D-man controls enough aspects of Sinfestia's culture as to be able to force upon others his own standards for what is and is not creepy, as suits his corporate and material goals of the moment.

Let us set aside, for now, sentient toasters and fembots following their programming (I'm certain they'll intrude again, very soon); I don't see them as essentially relevant to the question raised by the proposed intertwining of culture and creepiness. I have a dark and boding faith, though, that my fellow Sinfesters will soon prove me mistaken in that assumption.

It is that statement, "Culture defines creepiness," that piqued my interest. Does it? Does creepiness derive from shared cultural values? Or, is creepiness a subjective matter, differing from one individual to the next and depending greatly upon his or her experience and ethics for its definition? Or could it be an admixture of both, culturally shaped, but individually defined?


I guess it's in the way you define creepy. I know off the top of my head two...

1. Creepy as in something that is unsettling / scary. This I believe is not influenced by culture, in that primal fears transcend barriers.

2. Creepy as in weird. This I see defined by the culture one has, many societies do certain things that others find weird. I expect someone from Japan to find the Mexican holiday "day of the dead" to be considered strange, in that while both societies honor the dead, Japan does it with a small personal shrine, not a communal party with many, for a lack of a better word, rather morbid figurines and candies.
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, apparently, we need to settle on the definition of creepy we're using or we won't make much progress with the thesis under consideration.

Heretical Rants seems to be using "creepy" synonymously with "moral outrage," but expresses reservations about that serving as the totality of the definition, adding that there is a personal dimension to skeeviness which must also be considered.

Rothide defines "creepy" as first something unsettling, dependent upon primal fears which transcend cultural boundaries, and then adds that creepiness can also result from beholding an alien or previously unknown activity.

Let's see if a standard dictionary definition can incorporate these aspects of:
moral outrage
personal disgust
primal fear
and xenophobia.

dictionary.com (based on the Random House dictionary) wrote:

creep·y [kree-pee]
adjective, creep·i·er, creep·i·est.
1. having or causing a creeping sensation of the skin, as from horror or fear: a creepy ghost story.
2. that creeps: a creepy insect.
3. Slang. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a person who is a creep; obnoxious; weird.
Origin: 1825–35; creep + -y1


...and, unfortunately, of the provided definitions of "creep," only two are nouns relevant to people:

dictionary.com (based on the Random House dictionary) wrote:

...
14. Slang. a boring, disturbingly eccentric, painfully introverted, or obnoxious person.
15. Slang. an intelligence or counterintelligence agent; spy.
...


The requirements of personal disgust, primal fear, and even xenophobia could be settled with such a definition, but the primary requirement of moral outrage is left unsatisfied. Without that requirement, it will be very difficult to establish the crucial link between culture and creepiness that lies in the thesis. It also savagely weakens the claims that Slick's actions with the fembot are creepy on the grounds that they bring offense against morality and decency (or vice-versa: that they are quite acceptable within the culture of Sinfestia; neither hypothesis is supportable without an explicit link between creepiness and prevalent morality.)

We have two options to avoid this early pitfall: someone can cite a verifiable source for a definition of "creepy" or "creep" that specifically includes moral offense among its causal properties, or we can agree that, for our purposes of argument, "moral outrage" needs to be included among the causal elements of some "creepy" sensations.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
Might I say in my defense I only brought up a fictitious sentient toaster that remembered every time it had to make toast for someone, and hated making toast.

I was mostly trying to illustrate that it's kind of a silly notion to think that a robot would become sentient and thinking when brought into the reality zone, and that to expect it to do anything else but its primary function, and more so not actually wanting to do what it is supposed to do, is also stupid. To me the fembot was just a machine, much like a toaster, and slick trying to control it was well withing logical reason. He had no knowledge of the sudden sentience, and as such trying to control her shouldn't be held against him.

Most however decided it wasn't the same thing since you can't have a relationship with a toaster. I counter that as you can't really have a relationship with a fem bot either, and believing you can is just as creepy as using one.

I've been thinking of this comic, and have finally decided I don't care what the higher/deeper message is. The simplest one is, Slick's life sucks and the feminists actively make that so. Whether to make him realize it or just to rub salt in the wound is up for debate.

Here's a thought: maybe you were just wrong in your interpretation
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