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Feminism because why not make a thread for it?
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently they're not alone, too lazy to look but Germany has similar laws. Supposedly, form my understanding, it's to protect kids from public humiliation, but to me it would just make outsiders stand out that much more.
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Apparently they're not alone, too lazy to look but Germany has similar laws. Supposedly, form my understanding, it's to protect kids from public humiliation, but to me it would just make outsiders stand out that much more.

Huh. I grew up as one of those outsiders, myself, and, yeah, to a kid, that humiliation does indeed hurt. But, it's really no worse than any other of childhood's pains and tribulations, especially when looked back upon from an adult viewpoint. Isn't it possible to protect kids a little too much?
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitflipper wrote:

Actually, that name issue strikes closer to the heart of this thread's topic than even porn does. Shouldn't a person (male or female, for that matter) be free to call herself whatever she likes?

I have no problem with people calling _themselves_ whatever they want, but some of them give their children the most god-awful names - it almost amounts to child abuse. I'd tell you some stories if I wasn't typing on a Kindle with a cat head-butting my hands.
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Thy Brilliance



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:
Thy Brilliance wrote:
Usually when I have an unusually labor intensive day of work at my white collar job I just drop dead on the bed when I get home,

But that's not going to be enough to convince you.

You are right, it's not; because I have had all sorts of jobs, white collar and blue collar, including unloading trucks at UPS, and I didn't "drop dead" when I got home, except when I was ill.

Thy Brilliance wrote:
How about time spent commuting for a blue collar worker as opposed to a white collar worker?

2-3 hours minimum spent commuting everyday is huge.

that's 10-15 extra hours every week.

I read this, and then I read your quotation below it, expecting a source that said that blue collar workers, on average, spend 2-3 more hours per day commuting than white collar workers. I expected it to say that, because that's what it had to say to support your point. It didn't, and therefore it didn't.

I hereby contend that you will never find a source that claims blue collar workers spend 2-3 hours more per day commuting than white collar workers, because I feel quite confident it's not true. Actually, I don't think you can find anything that says blue collar workers spend 1 hour more per day. I think you must have read a random paper about a specific industry (construction?) and carelessly extended it out to all blue collar workers, which makes it very, very poor support for your point.

Why did you pick "2-3 hours minimum" as the figure to cite? From my view, it looks like the "extra sleep" point wasn't enough to justify your claim, and so now you've scrambled over to commuting, and when it's not enough, that you will scramble over to something else. This reads to me like you haven't actually put your argument together, yet, instead making it up as you go along. This might be the root cause of your inability to express your argument.



As far as I'm concerned, I was already over the top when I mentioned how physical tiredness causes more time to be wasted recuperating.

But, because I'm a nice guy, I firmly solidified my point by revealing to you yet another source of time wasted as a result of being a blue collar worker as opposed to a white collar worker i.e. commuting.

You're just backpedaling right now.

You ask me why I pick "2-3 hours minimum"?

It's because I am merely imitating your decision to arbitrarily come up with "perhaps an extra 7 hours of work per week" out of the blue.

Am I supposed to assume that you are allowed to make up rough estimates of numbers to support your argument whenever you want, but I for some reason am not allowed the same privilege?

The source I provided only demonstrates one crucial fact, which is that blue collar workers commute longer distances on average than white collar workers.

That is in fact all I need to demonstrate.

Hell, even if you completely ignore commuting, your 40 to 45 hour week for a blue collar worker doesn't even include overtime.

Cut the crap.

Admit that my point is valid already.
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, I was already over the top when I mentioned how physical tiredness causes more time to be wasted recuperating.

Yes. You are over the top. Way, way over the top.

Thy Brilliance wrote:
But, because I'm a nice guy, I firmly solidified my point by revealing to you yet another source of time wasted as a result of being a blue collar worker as opposed to a white collar worker i.e. commuting.

You made the extraordinary claim that blue collar workers didn't have enough time to raise their kids. When Dogen argued that even a single parent working 60 hours a week had enough time, you claimed that Dogen was wrong because you actually had more than one criterion. When called on it, you have explained that your extra criteria actually all fold back into the original criterion, so your claim that Dogen wasn't applying all of your criteria was actually false.

Your characterisation of yourself as painstakingly explaining your points instead of moving the goalposts as you think of new random claims to weld onto your incomplete argument is laughable.

Your "revelations" about time wasted as a result of being a blue collar worker are as yet useless. I've asked you how much more time a blue collar worker spends commuting than a white collar worker. You cannot tell me. You have to know and share this fact in order to use it in your argument. This is the most basic logic - you have to have some kind of support to claim the things you do.

Thy Brilliance wrote:
Am I supposed to assume that you are allowed to make up rough estimates of numbers to support your argument whenever you want, but I for some reason am not allowed the same privilege?

You claimed that we have to add extra sleep time to time worked for blue collar workers. It is your responsibility to tell us how much extra sleep time is required. I didn't want to argue about the amount of time, so I granted 7 hours (which I think might actually be a high estimate). If you don't like that number, it is your responsibility to fix it with evidence, just as it was your responsibility to provide the number in the first place.

Thy Brilliance wrote:
The source I provided only demonstrates one crucial fact, which is that blue collar workers commute longer distances on average than white collar workers.

Did you even read your source? It does not not talk about the average commute of blue collar workers. It does not compare the commute of blue collar workers to white collar workers. It does not say what you are claiming it says. You are flat-out lying about what your source demonstrates. I'm pretty sure you've been called out for doing this before.

Thy Brilliance wrote:
Hell, even if you completely ignore commuting, your 40 to 45 hour week for a blue collar worker doesn't even include overtime.

How much overtime does the average blue collar worker work? You have to tell us this if you want to use it in an argument.

Thy Brilliance wrote:
Cut the crap.

Admit that my point is valid already.

All of the crap is yours. Your point isn't valid, and never will be, because history has shown us you will never actually put together the logic or evidence that could make it valid. And also becuase you're wrong.
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
I have no problem with people calling _themselves_ whatever they want, but some of them give their children the most god-awful names - it almost amounts to child abuse. I'd tell you some stories if I wasn't typing on a Kindle with a cat head-butting my hands.
O-kay, granted: I'm surprised Frank Zappa's kids didn't emasculate him in retaliation for the names he saddled them with. But the young Icelandic lady in the article, as I understand it, actually wants to be called by the name her mother gave her; the guvvy's saying "no," though, because that term uses the masculine article and is therefore improper for a woman. (Guess they've never bumped into a Sam, Chris, or Terry of either gender.)
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:
Thy Brilliance wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, I was already over the top when I mentioned how physical tiredness causes more time to be wasted recuperating.

Yes. You are over the top. Way, way over the top.

Thy Brilliance wrote:
But, because I'm a nice guy, I firmly solidified my point by revealing to you yet another source of time wasted as a result of being a blue collar worker as opposed to a white collar worker i.e. commuting.

You made the extraordinary claim that blue collar workers didn't have enough time to raise their kids. When Dogen argued that even a single parent working 60 hours a week had enough time, you claimed that Dogen was wrong because you actually had more than one criterion. When called on it, you have explained that your extra criteria actually all fold back into the original criterion, so your claim that Dogen wasn't applying all of your criteria was actually false.

Your characterisation of yourself as painstakingly explaining your points instead of moving the goalposts as you think of new random claims to weld onto your incomplete argument is laughable.

Your "revelations" about time wasted as a result of being a blue collar worker are as yet useless. I've asked you how much more time a blue collar worker spends commuting than a white collar worker. You cannot tell me. You have to know and share this fact in order to use it in your argument. This is the most basic logic - you have to have some kind of support to claim the things you do.

Thy Brilliance wrote:
Am I supposed to assume that you are allowed to make up rough estimates of numbers to support your argument whenever you want, but I for some reason am not allowed the same privilege?

You claimed that we have to add extra sleep time to time worked for blue collar workers. It is your responsibility to tell us how much extra sleep time is required. I didn't want to argue about the amount of time, so I granted 7 hours (which I think might actually be a high estimate). If you don't like that number, it is your responsibility to fix it with evidence, just as it was your responsibility to provide the number in the first place.

Thy Brilliance wrote:
The source I provided only demonstrates one crucial fact, which is that blue collar workers commute longer distances on average than white collar workers.

Did you even read your source? It does not not talk about the average commute of blue collar workers. It does not compare the commute of blue collar workers to white collar workers. It does not say what you are claiming it says. You are flat-out lying about what your source demonstrates. I'm pretty sure you've been called out for doing this before.

Thy Brilliance wrote:
Hell, even if you completely ignore commuting, your 40 to 45 hour week for a blue collar worker doesn't even include overtime.

How much overtime does the average blue collar worker work? You have to tell us this if you want to use it in an argument.

Thy Brilliance wrote:
Cut the crap.

Admit that my point is valid already.

All of the crap is yours. Your point isn't valid, and never will be, because history has shown us you will never actually put together the logic or evidence that could make it valid. And also becuase you're wrong.




http://www.pdx.edu/sites/www.pdx.edu.cus/files/PR040.pdf


Can I resume my holier than thou attitude yet?

Wanna wipe that egg off your face?
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Average hours worked, by type of work. Not much difference there.

Thy's paper wrote:
Cubukgil and Miller (1982) ranked occupational groups on sensitivity to travel time, beginning with the least sensitive, as follows: 1) skilled blue collar/foreman, 2) high management/professional, 3) middle management/semi-professional, 4) supervisor, 5) semi/unskilled blue collar, and 6) clerical/sales/services. This suggests that if exurban living does require longer commutes, skilled blue collar workers and managers and professionals would be more likely to be moving there.

...

In the one study that compares exurban and suburban commuting distance, Dueker et al. (1983) used used rural non-farm residents of [Standard Metropolitan Statistical Areas] as their definition of exurban residents. They found no significant different in the commuting length of exurbanites and suburbanites or among various types of exurbanites where the categories are based on housing type and cost and household incomes.

...

The typical household buying an exurban home near Portland, Oregon in 1987, was a family of four with two adult wage earners. They previously lived in a suburb of Portland. The primary wage earner holds a managerial, professional, or blue collar job while the secondary wage earner has a technical, sales, or clerical position. Both commute to the urban or suburban area.

...

Occupations are important in determining work and home locations as well as commuting characteristics ... Once again exurban and suburban are similar with most wage earners holding managerial and professional or technical, sales, and clerical positions.

Looks like it's upper income professionals and managers (42%) who make the decision to have longer commutes from exurban areas, rather than highly skilled (18%) or low skilled blue collar workers (17%).
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:
Can I resume my holier than thou attitude yet?

Wanna wipe that egg off your face?

You quoted a paragraph from a random source which had nothing to do with your argument. You then told me it demonstrated something it does not demonstrate. Go back and read your post. It does not say what you want it to say. I was correct to inform you that it does not say what you want it to say. You are in the wrong.

Regarding your posting of the larger article: I hereby declare that I do not believe it says that blue collar workers commute 2-3 more hours per day than white collar workers, which is what you need it to say to support your claim. I further declare that I do not believe it says that blue collar workers commute an hour more than white collar workers. I strongly expect that it will not even say that blue collar workers commute any more at all than white collar workers.

Feel free to demonstrate that I am wrong. Simply point out the page where it says blue collar workers commute more than white collar workers. I will absolutely admit that I was wrong.

If you cannot point that page out to me, I think you should admit you were wrong. Seems fair, yes?
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, having skimmed the whole paper, it's less about what people do and where they work than where they live and where they work. Job type is only explored in relation to who buys exurban homes. Exurban home purchases are analyzed in relation to commute time however, and since a majority of exurban purchasers are professional/managerial types, and exurbanites have the longest commutes (followed by suburbanites), we can assume that professional/managerial types have the longest average commutes.
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Sojobo



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's almost as though no one who actually read the paper could possibly mistake it for a comparison between blue collar and white collar commutes, neh?
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, it's an analysis of exurban versus suburban versus small town home buyers and how they get to work, really. Nothing in it suggests blue collar workers commute longer, but several parts imply that white collar workers (who live in exurban homes, however representative they are) do.
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:57 pm    Post subject: In an actual debate, both sides provide evidence. Reply with quote

Since you don't seem to like the numbers I have provided you, it is time for you to provide the numbers you feel are appropriate.

I ask you the simple questions:

How long is the average commute for the blue collar worker?

What is the maximum commute possible for the blue collar worker?

How long is the average commute for the white collar worker?

What is the maximum commute possible for the white collar worker?




Remember kids, this isn't an actual debate, this is a quest for knowledge.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:29 am    Post subject: Re: In an actual debate, both sides provide evidence. Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:
What is the maximum commute possible for the blue collar worker?

What is the maximum commute possible for the white collar worker?


what is the point of asking this?

and how is any of this supporting your contention that blue collar parents are too tired to ever talk to their kids about sex or provide a loving and supportive home for them?

and how is that supporting your contention that we need laws to require parental consent before contraception and abortion are allowed, regardless of what kind of homes those girls come from?

(i...think that's what he was trying to say? maybe? i dunno?)
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Sam



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:12 am    Post subject: Re: "out of touch" criticisms abound Reply with quote

1. Blue collar workers literally don't have the time for a conversation with their kids about sex

Thy Brilliance wrote:
Mouse, you're not exactly a blue collar worker.

Someone like that literally doesn't have the time to sit down with their kids and have a talk about sex, when they are barely financially surviving.

"Don't have sex" is short, simple, and to the point.


my dad hung drywall in the 80's and while it may blow your mind, he still had the energy to be a fucking parent who could ever have the time to have an important conversation with his kid, as opposed to "literally doesn't have the time to sit down with their kids and have a talk about sex"

Just stop talking about blue collar workers. You're too much of a broken-headed space alien to recognize that what you are talking about isn't typical blue collar parentage, nor does it adequately describe the motivations behind anything you are talking about in general.
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