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2013-02-20: Bring Back Old 'Nique
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StateOfBedlam



Joined: 07 Feb 2013
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smooshie wrote:
diagram12345 wrote:
When we help people, it's because we benefit from it in some way, even if it's the satisfaction and joy from helping someone.

So, is there no such thing as altruism?


"[...] even if it's the satisfaction and joy from helping someone."

That is altruism, isn't it?

Leohan wrote:
Interesting topic! Count me in!

In my opinion? No. Altruism is not a thing. Every action that any living being ever attempts is because said living is expecting a result that will prove beneficial to their environment. This can be the immediate environment (I have to work because I will receive my pay and I'll be able to buy an I-Phone) a more distant environment (I have to recycle because if I don't then any moment now the whole World will be a dumpster) or any layer in between. That does include helping other people. You do it because you will feel better with yourself doing it, because you want those people to think better of you, because you want to tell someone else at some point and want that other person to think better of you or, in some cases, because you expect repayment from either an afterlife or karma.

Of course this is absolutely oversimplified, but that's my general perspective. Not a human thing either. Every single living being lives this way, unless perhaps you are mentally ill and your actions have no expected reaction at all.


If you help someone as a consequence of your empathy for that someone, that isn't altruism?

"It wasn't altruism because you feel better when other people feel better," is a really bizarrely exclusive notion of what constitutes selflessness. There are clinical diagnoses for people who do not possess emotional empathy. In popular culture we usually call them psychopaths or sociopaths.

EDIT: Of course, that's my opinion, but I think this is ultimately an argument of semantics. My reaction is dependent on my notion of what altruism is. I think that's probably all we really disagree on, but I can't be certain.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StateOfBedlam wrote:
"It wasn't altruism because you feel better when other people feel better," is a really bizarrely exclusive notion of what constitutes selflessness. There are clinical diagnoses for people who do not possess emotional empathy. In popular culture we usually call them psychopaths or sociopaths.


People with no empathy would be sociopaths.

And well, as I said, it goes more complex. Look: Most times it's not really about feeling better by etc, etc. It's about a personal reassurance of your morality. Mostly everyone wants to see themselves as good people, but in order to do that some of their actions have to be either justified to fit their morality or they need to act with the sole purpose of reassuring it. Doing the second one is as close as we can get to altruism, but at the end of the day it's self-interested.

EDIT: Same as you, this is my opinion. Not gonna repeat this after every message, though, so that's my disclaimer.
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Ambaryerno



Joined: 31 Jul 2012
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Magenta wrote:
Reader1 wrote:
random question, have buddha and glossy ever met? (hopefully ms m is lurking)


They have not.

They should, though. Because Buddha is cool.


The problem is Xanthe and Buddha don't mix.

The philosophies of Buddha and Dragon are very much centered around balance and moderation. Xanthe's is anything BUT. She's an extremist who views the world as black and white, (with her point of view being White and everyone else's is not) and extremists like that tend to not get along with moderates.

I think it's QUITE fitting that Buddha and Dragon haven't appeared in the comic in a while. The introduction of the Patriarchy and Sisterhood has taken the strip into a very extremist direction. Their more moderate positions just don't fit in the world as it currently exists.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10554
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ambaryerno wrote:
Miss Magenta wrote:
Reader1 wrote:
random question, have buddha and glossy ever met? (hopefully ms m is lurking)


They have not.

They should, though. Because Buddha is cool.


The problem is Xanthe and Buddha don't mix.

The philosophies of Buddha and Dragon are very much centered around balance and moderation. Xanthe's is anything BUT. She's an extremist who views the world as black and white, (with her point of view being White and everyone else's is not) and extremists like that tend to not get along with moderates.

I think it's QUITE fitting that Buddha and Dragon haven't appeared in the comic in a while. The introduction of the Patriarchy and Sisterhood has taken the strip into a very extremist direction. Their more moderate positions just don't fit in the world as it currently exists.

Um, no. In universe, this has already been disproven:

Reader1 wrote:
these two seem very similar

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LarsenSan



Joined: 11 May 2012
Posts: 63

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, that's it. Between yesterday's strip (repeating a joke he already used not so long ago; heck, it was not even a good joke) and today's one (a direct attack to some users that were posting past strips) this webcomic has died to me. From today I'll stick with Giselle Lagace's webcomics. So, goodbye Sinfest, you are no longer the partner I once knew. Goodbye Tat, I hope you don't fall anymore coz you'll be underground. And goodbye to a couple of single-minded-idiots I've met in these forums; you know who I'm talking about.

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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 2758
Location: Behind you

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait don't go we'll miss you

like a churro on a sidewalk in India
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6076
Location: California

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i felt a great disturbance in the Force

as if one lone drooling mealy-mouthed misogynistic idiot cried out in terror and was suddenly--

wait, no, just stomach gurgling. carry on.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6076
Location: California

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

also fun fact, that you will gain some benefit from acting altruistically does not mean that your altruistic act thereby necessarily fails to be altruistic.
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lol



Joined: 16 Nov 2012
Posts: 136

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ambaryerno wrote:
Miss Magenta wrote:
Reader1 wrote:
random question, have buddha and glossy ever met? (hopefully ms m is lurking)


They have not.

They should, though. Because Buddha is cool.


The problem is Xanthe and Buddha don't mix.

The philosophies of Buddha and Dragon are very much centered around balance and moderation. Xanthe's is anything BUT. She's an extremist who views the world as black and white, (with her point of view being White and everyone else's is not) and extremists like that tend to not get along with moderates.

I think it's QUITE fitting that Buddha and Dragon haven't appeared in the comic in a while. The introduction of the Patriarchy and Sisterhood has taken the strip into a very extremist direction. Their more moderate positions just don't fit in the world as it currently exists.

Nothing you said about Xanthe is actually correct. If you think advocating choice and equality is extremism, I don't know how to help you. That is balance.

And what is all this noise about Xanthe needing to "mellow out?" She's been fairly even-tempered, albeit resolute, in most strips. She isn't as chill as Criminy or Buddha, but few people are.

LarsenSan wrote:
OK, that's it. Between yesterday's strip (repeating a joke he already used not so long ago; heck, it was not even a good joke) and today's one (a direct attack to some users that were posting past strips) this webcomic has died to me. From today I'll stick with Giselle Lagace's webcomics. So, goodbye Sinfest, you are no longer the partner I once knew. Goodbye Tat, I hope you don't fall anymore coz you'll be underground. And goodbye to a couple of single-minded-idiots I've met in these forums; you know who I'm talking about.

Larsen is such an attention seeker. Who posts just to let everyone know you've stopped reading?
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3316

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol wrote:


LarsenSan wrote:
OK, that's it. Between yesterday's strip (repeating a joke he already used not so long ago; heck, it was not even a good joke) and today's one (a direct attack to some users that were posting past strips) this webcomic has died to me. From today I'll stick with Giselle Lagace's webcomics. So, goodbye Sinfest, you are no longer the partner I once knew. Goodbye Tat, I hope you don't fall anymore coz you'll be underground. And goodbye to a couple of single-minded-idiots I've met in these forums; you know who I'm talking about.

Larsen is such an attention seeker. Who posts just to let everyone know you've stopped reading?


The useless.
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bitflipper



Joined: 09 Jul 2011
Posts: 728
Location: Here and Now

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smooshie wrote:
diagram12345 wrote:
When we help people, it's because we benefit from it in some way, even if it's the satisfaction and joy from helping someone.

So, is there no such thing as altruism?

Depends; are you asking that of someone who is altruistic, or not? Razz
My real point: there is indeed behavior that can be interpreted as altruistic, but whether it truly is altruistic or whether it is merely disguised selfishness will depend very much on the viewpoint of whom you ask; altruism, per se, is not an objective thing.

LarsenSan wrote:
butt-hurt whining, but a cute pic

Well, you know what they say: "Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya!"
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
also fun fact, that you will gain some benefit from acting altruistically does not mean that your altruistic act thereby necessarily fails to be altruistic.


How about you planning to get some benefit as the objective of your seemingly altruistic act?
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6076
Location: California

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
also fun fact, that you will gain some benefit from acting altruistically does not mean that your altruistic act thereby necessarily fails to be altruistic.


How about you planning to get some benefit as the objective of your seemingly altruistic act?


then that isn't altruistic.

but that also doesn't mean that there is no such thing as an altruistic act.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I'm postulating is that every living thing, human or otherwise, that actively performs an action is expecting a reaction that would benefit them in some way.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6076
Location: California

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's nice, but it does not agree with reality.
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