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2013-02-20: Bring Back Old 'Nique
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 965

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anything that I could counterargument against would be appreciated.
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bitflipper



Joined: 09 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Anything that I could counterargument against would be appreciated.

:sigh: Fine. Let me take my "idiotic argument" pill, here, and...

Leohan wrote:
What I'm postulating is that every living thing, human or otherwise, that actively performs an action is expecting a reaction that would benefit them in some way.

Suicides?
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you seem to be conflating the fact that altruistic acts can result in benefits for the actor with the idea that people who act altruistically expect to benefit from their action. for example, you're essentially saying that, for example, a person who runs into a burning building to help the people inside is not thinking about helping the people inside, he's thinking about how he's going to benefit from this, acting in the expectation of benefit.

you might say that he doesn't know he has this motive--but if he doesn't know he has this motive, then you can't say he's expecting anything because of it.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitflipper wrote:
Leohan wrote:
What I'm postulating is that every living thing, human or otherwise, that actively performs an action is expecting a reaction that would benefit them in some way.

Suicides?


Good one, but your regular suicide does believe that the alternative to committing such act is worse. In this case I'll admit that "expecting a beneficial reaction" is not that accurate. It would be more like "Wants to avoid something else."

ShadowCell wrote:
for example, you're essentially saying that, for example, a person who runs into a burning building to help the people inside is not thinking about helping the people inside, he's thinking about how he's going to benefit from this, acting in the expectation of benefit.

you might say that he doesn't know he has this motive--but if he doesn't know he has this motive, then you can't say he's expecting anything because of it.


Not exactly. He's indeed thinking about helping those people, but before he does that there are a lot of mechanisms that activate, including the risk/benefit one. What's the motivation? It can be an expected reward, a moral justification for his life choices or even a search for heaven. None of them truly altruistic.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

none of those are conscious mechanisms, unless you mean to say that the person sees the burning building, sits down, thinks about how this will get him to heaven or justify his life, decides that this will help advance his interests, and then thinks about the people inside the building. so if you're going to say we can't act altruistically because of unconscious mechanisms, you're saying that we are responsible for things we don't know and don't consciously think, and that that overrules the things we do know and consciously think.

which gets to the real problem here: you're banking on a completely unreasonable conception of altruism.
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StateOfBedlam



Joined: 07 Feb 2013
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Not exactly. He's indeed thinking about helping those people, but before he does that there are a lot of mechanisms that activate, including the risk/benefit one. What's the motivation? It can be an expected reward, a moral justification for his life choices or even a search for heaven. None of them truly altruistic.


You have yet to give a clear answer on whether you think motivation by empathy constitutes altruism. Person A is distressed. Person B experiences emotional pain as a consequence of Person A's distress. Person B helps Person A to relieve this pain.
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Mikewee777



Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 527
Location: 0_0

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pixi-san wrote:
Rock on, Tat. Anyone who likes their comics consistently formula-driven should stick to Garfield and Cathy.


http://youtu.be/KbCT5fXdhhc
The formula is why 3rd person Medieval and 1st person shooter games still exist despite how boring and predictable they are. It gives security [Also chocolate,ACK].


I like this comic. Charlie needs to stop being sodomized on TV, comics and in real life. I know Charlie has a problem but it doesn't mean that everyone should exploit his illness by milking him financially while throwing bags of cocaine at him. Oh wait, wrong Charlie. Charles M. Schulz is dead. You are milking a dead horse with empty testicles. There's nothing left worth milking.
Please stop. His corpse needs to be at rest, not rolling.
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Mikewee777



Joined: 16 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Ambaryerno"] The problem is Xanthe and Buddha don't mix.
Buddha =balance. Xanthe=hate.[/quote]

I agree. Those at peace can bring change without a need to declare war.

The more Tat trolls, the more traffic activity his domain gets, therefore the more cash he gets. Even the devil couldn't decoy this well.
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ktern



Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 944

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Not exactly. He's indeed thinking about helping those people, but before he does that there are a lot of mechanisms that activate, including the risk/benefit one. What's the motivation? It can be an expected reward, a moral justification for his life choices or even a search for heaven. None of them truly altruistic.


if this is accurate then i expect far more religious people to perform this sort of heroic action, because they have an additional reward system attached

since it's your argument the burden of providing numbers is on you
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Arkhron



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 266

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Digging the comic found this:



It's from january 2012.

The situation has a lot of interpretations. I think that one may be that we all are stucked with this Patriarchy situation. Again, I dont blame Mr. Tatsuya, I blame the "ohmygodthiscomicisruined" fanboys. Chill out and let it flow, man...

In the other hand, seems that from a year ago Slick feels that the metaphorical spotlight is no more over him, and it hurts. So, I think he is the less evolutionated character; He may show development but goes backwards everytime.

I would love see him more mature, accepting that changes does happens and isn't a bad thing. And finding a bo... girlfriend that show him how to behave.

Definitely, I ship him with X. Only if her were less patronizing...
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bitflipper



Joined: 09 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Good one, but your regular suicide does believe that the alternative to committing such act is worse. In this case I'll admit that "expecting a beneficial reaction" is not that accurate. It would be more like "Wants to avoid something else."

Well, that was one of two answers I was expecting. And not a bad one, at that; the typical contemplater of suicide is indeed often seeking solace from pain, anguish, or seemingly insurmountable trials. (It's kind of pointless asking an actual suicide what he or she expected, for fairly obvious reasons.)

But, a person in a suicidal state of mind is, self-evidently, not in a rational frame of mind. It can be argued that a state of enlightened self-interest, in which ones motives for actions that primarily benefit others derive ultimately from perceived benefit to oneself--what I understand you to be claiming as the root of all human behavior, altruistic or not--is the ultimate rational state of mind. Actions are considered and weighed in the balance of risk versus benefit. Aren't these two frames of mind inherently contradictory? Can we really claim that an irrational suicide was expecting anything sensible at the time?
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Reader1



Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
What I'm postulating is that every living thing, human or otherwise, that actively performs an action is expecting a reaction that would benefit them in some way.


you're assuming that all actions are premeditated... they're not. sometimes people do things on impulse without even thinking about it. if that impulse is to make someone else happy and the person doesn't have enough time to think about doing it, then they can't be expecting anything in return. i also stand by my previous statement that what you are saying can be restated as no one does anything without a reason. it takes a reason to make a decision to act. the two seem to have indistinguishable consequences so I’m not sure how to tell which is at work besides what I know from myself….
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Reader1



Joined: 04 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ambaryerno wrote:
Miss Magenta wrote:
Reader1 wrote:
random question, have buddha and glossy ever met? (hopefully ms m is lurking)


They have not.

They should, though. Because Buddha is cool.


The problem is Xanthe and Buddha don't mix.

The philosophies of Buddha and Dragon are very much centered around balance and moderation. Xanthe's is anything BUT. She's an extremist who views the world as black and white, (with her point of view being White and everyone else's is not) and extremists like that tend to not get along with moderates.

I think it's QUITE fitting that Buddha and Dragon haven't appeared in the comic in a while. The introduction of the Patriarchy and Sisterhood has taken the strip into a very extremist direction. Their more moderate positions just don't fit in the world as it currently exists.


you say this likely because she is very one sided as well as having a viewpoint that is unlike any of the other characters, 'nique jumped onboard. many of the characters however have a viewpoint all their own. lil e was a devil worshiper and yet that didn't feel like an extreme because tat gave him depth and made him human/relatable, even before he started hanging with pebbles. we're hoping he does the same with glossy
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, it can not be premeditated (can not in contrast to cannot) but the interest is still there. Lots of the mental processes that define our personalities and attitudes towards something are subconscious. They don't stop being parts of our personalities.

Fight or flight is a good example. My mother is terribly afraid of rats and will go running and screaming every time she sees one. Once she thinks it rationally, though, she is aware of the fact that she's far more powerful than every rat she could possibly meet. The fact that her conscious self tells her that rats are not to be feared doesn't make her any less of a coward. In that same vein, the fact that the processes that manage your interests are subconscious does not mean that those interests don't exist.


ktern: Nope. It's YOUR counterargument. Look for the data and I will choose if I need to acknowledge it.


Also in case you are curious I'm adhering to this right here
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reader1 wrote:
lil e was a devil worshiper and yet that didn't feel like an extreme because tat gave him depth and made him human/relatable, even before he started hanging with pebbles. we're hoping he does the same with glossy
Well, let's be fair, here; Li'l E, early on, as a fanatical Devil fanboy, did seem comically extreme, one-sided, and shallow. It took a while, and a lot of interactions with others such as Seymour, Monique, Slick, and even Squig, before Li'l E began to flesh out as anything other than an excuse to laugh at his polarized extremism.

One of the things I deeply enjoy about Tat's work is that he is willing to invest the time it takes to move a character from that one-sidedness to becoming more human and complex.
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