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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Feiticeira wrote:
When you expressed your dismay at the 'celebration' of Chris Kyle's confirmed kill count were you at all under the impression that his targets were simply young men emerging from a Wahhabi mosque?

EDIT: uh, oops. It was fritter who was moaning about that.


fritterdonut wrote:
Enemy combatants? Yes, probably.


I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe that we should be proud of killing as many people as a small natural disaster.
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Feiticeira wrote:
This is just obscurantism. You can call it jihad, Salafi jihad, Islamic extremism, whatever. But let's not be obtuse. This is not the Salvation Army. It is, however, semantic bullshit. You know exactly what I mean by jihad and jihadis, and it's not fucking Mormonism.

I'm not familiar enough with Mormonism, fucking or otherwise, to offer an opinion on their fundamentalist views. But, yes, I'm fairly certain of what you mean by jihad, and I'm equally certain that you are misapplying the term. Which is why I could call you out on it in the first place; if you had bothered to think about how extremist your own views sound as a result of your over-generalizations and improper labeling, I likely wouldn't even have had an opening.

Feiticeira wrote:
That's a remarkable level of condescension from someone who is stone cold wrong. It is in no way indicative of naive idealism to be deeply concerned by people who profess their desire to see the return of the caliphate. It is not a generalisation to say that the ideology of such people is a sinister one. It is sinister, and your suggestion that my opposition to totalitarian theocracy is an equivalent state of fanaticism as the men and women who glorify suicide-murder and the destruction of the West is utterly stupid.

Ah, I see. It's sinister when they call for it to be done to you, but not when you call for it to be done to them. Well, allow me to congratulate you on your dexter views, then. But pardon me if I don't wish you luck in your demand to kill anyone you consider a jihadist, regardless of their gender, age, involvement, or even actual beliefs.
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Feiticeira



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitflipper wrote:
[ But, yes, I'm fairly certain of what you mean by jihad, and I'm equally certain that you are misapplying the term


I'm not. The fact that the word jihad resonates differently for different people does not make my use of it in this case erroneous. You may consider any use of the word 'jihad' in a militaristic context to be a misapplication but scholars like Ibn Qayyim Al-Jawziyya had the opposing view. I'm not convinced you have a more comprehensive understanding or nuanced interpretation of the hadith than he did.

bitflipper wrote:
Which is why I could call you out on it in the first place; if you had bothered to think about how extremist your own views sound as a result of your over-generalizations and improper labeling


My interpretation of 'jihad', far from extreme, is not an uncommon one.

bitflipper wrote:
Ah, I see. It's sinister when they call for it to be done to you, but not when you call for it to be done to them.


Self-evidently so. My desire is not to see the end of democracy, multiculturalism, philosophy and literature, or the death or subjugation of people who disagree with me. This cannot be said of the fanatical Islamists. I don't wish to see the end of them out of imperialism or murderous rage, it's out of self-preservation and the knowledge that their view of the way the world should be is utterly incompatible with my own.

bitflipper wrote:
But pardon me if I don't wish you luck in your demand to kill anyone you consider a jihadist, regardless of their gender, age, involvement, or even actual beliefs.


I'll just assume that the only person who actually believes this is my position is you.
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Feiticeira wrote:
Self-evidently so. My desire is not to see the end of democracy, multiculturalism, philosophy and literature, or the death or subjugation of people who disagree with me. This cannot be said of the fanatical Islamists. I don't wish to see the end of them out of imperialism or murderous rage, it's out of self-preservation and the knowledge that their view of the way the world should be is utterly incompatible with my own.


Does this apply to all Muslims, or only fanatical Muslims?
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trustedfaith



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Your past track record of being sarcastic and snarky in a good majority of your posts.


To be fair here... not trying to stick up for Feit being snarky but he usually has a reason for it. I really haven't ever seen him randomly snarky. And the people on the receiving end of it either set themselves up for it or deserved it.

In regards to Fritter... I think he/she/they meant on a general note. No matter how many "kills" someone has they shouldn't be proud of it. They should be proud of their service, I'm not denying that, but this world shouldn't have gotten to the point that we need people like him and what he did to protect us.

It's just sad that we do. It's sad that those kills were once people. They were once innocent kids before they were trained to hate people and kill people in the name of religion and power. And it's a shame their lives ended because that's the life they chose for themselves.

There's no harm in saying human life should be sacred and not wasted. Doesn't make you pro Al-Qaeda or not believe that people like Chris are heroes. Just means you accept that human life should be more than a number. We're all someone's sister, brother, mother, father, son, or daughter right?

Ok that's the end of my hippy discussion. I'm gonna go hug some trees.
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Feiticeira



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:
Feiticeira wrote:
Self-evidently so. My desire is not to see the end of democracy, multiculturalism, philosophy and literature, or the death or subjugation of people who disagree with me. This cannot be said of the fanatical Islamists. I don't wish to see the end of them out of imperialism or murderous rage, it's out of self-preservation and the knowledge that their view of the way the world should be is utterly incompatible with my own.


Does this apply to all Muslims?


Obviously not.
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trustedfaith wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
Your past track record of being sarcastic and snarky in a good majority of your posts.


To be fair here... not trying to stick up for Feit being snarky but he usually has a reason for it. I really haven't ever seen him randomly snarky. And the people on the receiving end of it either set themselves up for it or deserved it.

In regards to Fritter... I think he/she/they meant on a general note. No matter how many "kills" someone has they shouldn't be proud of it. They should be proud of their service, I'm not denying that, but this world shouldn't have gotten to the point that we need people like him and what he did to protect us.

It's just sad that we do. It's sad that those kills were once people. They were once innocent kids before they were trained to hate people and kill people in the name of religion and power. And it's a shame their lives ended because that's the life they chose for themselves.

There's no harm in saying human life should be sacred and not wasted. Doesn't make you pro Al-Qaeda or not believe that people like Chris are heroes. Just means you accept that human life should be more than a number. We're all someone's sister, brother, mother, father, son, or daughter right?

Ok that's the end of my hippy discussion. I'm gonna go hug some trees.


Pretty much that. ^

Feiticeira wrote:
Obviously not.


Thank you for the clarification.
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Michael



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Feit,

I am glad to see you back
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trustedfaith wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
Your past track record of being sarcastic and snarky in a good majority of your posts.


To be fair here... not trying to stick up for Feit being snarky but he usually has a reason for it. I really haven't ever seen him randomly snarky. And the people on the receiving end of it either set themselves up for it or deserved it.

In regards to Fritter... I think he/she/they meant on a general note. No matter how many "kills" someone has they shouldn't be proud of it. They should be proud of their service, I'm not denying that, but this world shouldn't have gotten to the point that we need people like him and what he did to protect us.

It's just sad that we do. It's sad that those kills were once people. They were once innocent kids before they were trained to hate people and kill people in the name of religion and power. And it's a shame their lives ended because that's the life they chose for themselves.

There's no harm in saying human life should be sacred and not wasted. Doesn't make you pro Al-Qaeda or not believe that people like Chris are heroes. Just means you accept that human life should be more than a number. We're all someone's sister, brother, mother, father, son, or daughter right?

Ok that's the end of my hippy discussion. I'm gonna go hug some trees.

But that is what a sniper does. Their service IS killing people, one by one, possibly more if they're blowing up something or get a "lucky shot". I think the "celebration" by other people of their "achievements" only helps them come to terms with what they did.

An Feit: I did misinterpret your tone, but do you see your own contradictions:

Quote:
not feeling remorse over the deaths of the legions of suicidal nihilists eager to see the end of civilization is not one of them.


I am incapable of understanding how anyone feels sad about 'suicidal nihilist' wanting to kill themselves. Also, I think it's been pretty well established by myself that I'm not really moved by people dying from their own poor decisions. There have been points in my life I have been obsessed with dying and mortality. I have thought, at great length, about whether or not it is okay for one person to take another persons life. The best conclusion I can come up with is this:

Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't, but I can't make a judgment in every case without sufficient information, and usually, that's never going to be available. So my view of people being killed is usually indifference -- it's not that I'm happy that they died, I just don't care.

Like Adam Lanza: that's an easy one, no, there was no good cause for him to kill those children or anyone else.

Two opposing soldiers on a battlefield: I'm not even going to begin to try to determine if it was right or wrong. Regardless of how we look at it form our "objective" positions, we can never have enough knowledge to know if the actions were right or wrong. It's way too complex and nuanced to ever make that call.

And in terms of Iraq and Afghanistan, I can't even begin to look at those situations and really care who died. I'm WAY too pissed off at the entire cluster fuck that those two military engagements were to look at them as anything other than the US lighting giant mountains of money on fire while using its own people, and their welfare, as the kindling.

But this wasn't really what we were talking about:

How did a 10 and 11 year old reach the conclusion that they needed to plot out the murder of one of their classmates while holding the rest at bay.

A 20 year old with lots of issues and extensive gun training going crazy and killing people? I can vaguely see how that happened.

Soldiers killing hostile threats? I can understand that.

In both above cases I can rationalize, at least vaguely, why what happened did happen.

But to see two kids around my own sons' age (they turn 11 in July) plot out something so heinous? My brain sort of short circuits. I think of the little boy who used to live next door, the one that we watched beat a plastic pink flamingo against the ground until it was just a metal stick with a pink nub on the end. I think was that these kids five-six years ago? What happened in the interim? Are these kids an outlier? Or are they indicative of some greater societal phenomenon? Were they abused in some way? Grossly neglected? What were/are their family situations?

The questions go on and on, and I know I'll never know most of them, but it seems so "alien" for lack of a better word.
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
And in terms of Iraq and Afghanistan, I can't even begin to look at those situations and really care who died. I'm WAY too pissed off at the entire cluster fuck that those two military engagements were to look at them as anything other than the US lighting giant mountains of money on fire while using its own people, and their welfare, as the kindling.


I find it rather humorous that you say it used America's own people as kindling, when recent numbers look like 4488 American troops killed in Iraq, versus 111,216 civilian deaths in Iraq. Which makes it about a 25:1 ratio.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
And in terms of Iraq and Afghanistan, I can't even begin to look at those situations and really care who died. I'm WAY too pissed off at the entire cluster fuck that those two military engagements were to look at them as anything other than the US lighting giant mountains of money on fire while using its own people, and their welfare, as the kindling.


I find it rather humorous that you say it used America's own people as kindling, when recent numbers look like 4488 American troops killed in Iraq, versus 111,216 civilian deaths in Iraq. Which makes it about a 25:1 ratio.

Thanks for proving what I said before about misinterpreting people's messages, cuz' what you think I'm saying isn't what I'm saying at all. I'm talking about things like how the cost we spent on those wars could have been used for universal healthcare for every single American for something like the next forty or so years. Or they could have fixed are decrepit infrastructure. Or so many other things. But no, we spent that money for . . . I guess there's a lot of people wanting to know that answer.
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Thanks for proving what I said before about misinterpreting people's messages, cuz' what you think I'm saying isn't what I'm saying at all. I'm talking about things like how the cost we spent on those wars could have been used for universal healthcare for every single American for something like the next forty or so years. Or they could have fixed are decrepit infrastructure. Or so many other things. But no, we spent that money for . . . I guess there's a lot of people wanting to know that answer.


Well to be fair, "Their people and their welfare" could be referring to the soldiers of the US and their wellbeing, instead of the citizens of the US and their social insurance. I generally take the term "welfare" as meaning someone's state of wellbeing, rather than the term for receiving social insurance.

Also, pretty sure most of the money got sucked into the anomalous whirlpool that is the military-industrial complex. I guess war is good for business, as long as you're in the business of making war possible.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:
Also, pretty sure most of the money got sucked into the anomalous whirlpool that is the military-industrial complex. I guess war is good for business, as long as you're in the business of making war possible.


Yeah, true, mostly, but don't forget there were things like Haliburton overcharging the military by $100,000,000 and all kinds of other bullshit. I think they only paid back like $24,000,000 btw, where did the $76,000,000 go I wonder?

Also, you're KMFDM sig is nice, but highly ironic. You know Sascha Konietzko is a nihilist, right? Wink
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking times I fell it is ok to kill another human being:

Chuck E. Cheese's Killer Faces Execution
By CHRISTINA NG | ABC News 14 hrs ago
Quote:

The Supreme Court has refused an appeal from so-called Chuck E. Cheese's murderer Nathan Dunlap, opening the door for a Colorado judge to schedule the state's first execution in over 15 years.
The killing of four employes in a Chuck E. Cheese's in 1993 was a massacre that scarred the people of Aurora, Colo., long before shooter James Holmes opened fire in a crowded movie theater on July 20, 2012. Holmes killed 12 and wounded dozens more.

Dunlap, 38, is one of three men on the state's death row. He was sentenced to death in 1996, but the victims' families have been waiting for justice to be carried out for nearly 20 years.

"I don't know if Dunlap is ever going to be executed," Sylvia Crowell, the mother of a victim, told ABCNews.com today. "Whether he dies from natural causes or from execution doesn't matter to me, but he better not leave that prison except in a pine box."

Full story: http://news.yahoo.com/chuck-e-cheeses-killer-faces-execution-163201661--abc-news-topstories.html
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Also, you're KMFDM sig is nice, but highly ironic. You know Sascha Konietzko is a nihilist, right? Wink


I'm secretly a closet nihilist, but don't tell anyone.

Also, I'm not going to be airing my views on the death penalty.
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