Sinfest

[diagram12345]

Sojobo, does it matter if people are getting something out of helping others? I don't see much to lose by accepting that the good things we do, and the positive relationships we engage in, are beneficial to us in some way.

Some acts are still better, healthier, and kinder than others. Just because you take pleasure in the act of kindness does not negate it.

Khan, if you have made the choice to not act kindly to your fellow man and woman, then perhaps you should take personal responsibility for that choice, rather claim that altruism (defined as acts of kindness and charity undertaken only for the pleasure derived from such actions) is an ideal left to the mentally ill or deficient.

[Leohan]

Sojobo: Well, it does turn complex and I see how you would see that I may not accept any examples as valid. After all, the wikipedia page featured some really good examples and I still think the same way. We can try, though. I was almost left speechless with mouse's example of plain forgetting of where you are supposed to be going.

khan: I believe, at this point, that we are adhering to 2 different schools of the same philosophy. Trust me, I understand you saying that there are no good deeds but biological impulses, and you could argue that I'm just going over semantics here, BUT! Undeniably some people are more prone to do 'good' than others. And also, if we are taking this under a risk/profit POV, you need to consider the profit that does actions provide, not towards the self but to a greater cause: The survival of the species and the planet.

This may seem a bit too mathematical, but I consider that any action that makes a better world or helps the survival and improvement of mankind is a good action. You could argue, if you are a determinist like I am, that there's no way of knowing if your seemingly good actions have a positive profit on the world and the species. Perhaps the beggar will use the money for drugs, who knows. At this point, I'd say that an "It's the intention that counts" philosophy is appropriate. Will doing my recycling improve my country and the World? How the hell do I know? I suppose that it's a safe bet to say that if everyone did it then the World would be better off, and Immanuel Kant knew a thing or two more about morality than I do. So, at the end of the day, if, in your own personal theory, you are performing an action that would lead to an improvement in the World, then you are performing a good action, regardless of its relation to your own personal agenda (Which you have because you don't act without a manner of personal interest, as discussed at length already)
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[khan]

Diagram: technically, my life is not up for discussion, as I am not mentally normal. however, despite not getting the same biological rewards, I always try to act in a way that will benefit humanity the most. Not always easy, but I'm not a quitter. I tend towards good to a fault. My reasons are somewhat academic, but I did not feel that my old self could survive in the world, so I made a new person. Erm, hence crazy I guess.

Leohan: I still think that for a normal person, the only reason they perform benevolent acts (those that offer no significant personal benefit) is for built-in rewards. Technically, benefiting humanity will benefit you and those carrying your genetics (family), so I don't see the contradiction. I don't think the fact that person receives a reward offsets the fact that they are sacrificing something.

Perhaps it could be argued that the biological reward is not an equal payout compared to the resources expended... I suppose in light of that idea perhaps altruism of a sort exists. It wouldn't be pure, but it would not be a net benefit to the self, thus it would be altruistic. As I stated above, I do not qualify for discussion.

[Leohan]

khan: Well, we mostly agree, except in the definition of a good deed I guess. My definition of it would be a deed that, at least in theory, brings up a positive result in the World, as in, if it should bring profit for the greater cause, then it's good. I'm saying this independently of personal motivations. I also believe that this kind of behaviour should be stimulated since people need to believe that doing 'goods deeds' is ultimately rewarding.

Also... I hope you have luck dealing with that. I, myself, know how hard it is to change your personality and mentality, and am working hard to become emotionally more normal.
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[Sojobo]