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2013-02-24: Fierce mode
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smooshie wrote:
Is female genital mutilation really that bad? I mean, we practice circumcision...

To be clear, I'm against both, but I get a little annoyed whenever female genital mutilation is mentioned, as if guys don't get their cocks carved up in our own culture or in other cultures...

No. Female genital mutilation is different from circumcision in several ways. First, it's typically done to prevent women from enjoying sex. In most types of female genital mutilation the clitoris is cut off. Sometimes in a hospital, but most commonly without anesthesia, with a knife or scissors. In the most extreme forms of FGM a woman's clitoris, inner labia, and outer labia are cut off and the wounds are sewn shut, leaving a small hole for urine and menstrual blood to leak out. Then, when she gets married, her husband cuts her open. Literally.

Now, if you disagree with circumcision, that's fine with me. I don't see any need for it, and all of the medical reasons people give for getting it done are bullshit. But comparing the two, especially circumcisions done in the US by trained professionals, is out and out ridiculous.
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Last edited by Dogen on Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also Smooshie:

Well... I think that we are better off avoiding the question of why "It seems worse when it happens to women." There's a long, dark road ahead of that.
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Smooshie



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
I mean, the way I interpret the comic, it says that the robots actually are free all the way along, but what limits their action is that they don't desire to be anything else in order to be happy, and when exposed to cruel realities of the World, then they become angered and rebellious.

This is, of course, a very clever and subtler metaphor for gender programming

My head's a little fuzzy. Can you give me a quick breakdown of gender programming? I'm having a bit of trouble understanding your analogy in that context Sad
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LadySunami



Joined: 04 May 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The question is, how do we stop genital mutilation without having people jump down our throats for religious suppression? We get enough harassment for things that don't actually suppress religious practices, like allowing civil same sex marriages and teaching evolutionary biology in school.
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Alpha Aim



Joined: 19 Nov 2012
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LadySunami wrote:
The question is, how do we stop genital mutilation without having people jump down our throats for religious suppression? We get enough harassment for things that don't actually suppress religious practices, like allowing civil same sex marriages and teaching evolutionary biology in school.

Depends. Would you prefer slowly influencing your opponents to your view, or would you rather drag them kicking and screaming into change?
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smooshie wrote:
Leohan wrote:
I mean, the way I interpret the comic, it says that the robots actually are free all the way along, but what limits their action is that they don't desire to be anything else in order to be happy, and when exposed to cruel realities of the World, then they become angered and rebellious.

This is, of course, a very clever and subtler metaphor for gender programming

My head's a little fuzzy. Can you give me a quick breakdown of gender programming? I'm having a bit of trouble understanding your analogy in that context Sad


Kinda simple, actually. We do know that women, just like men, are free to choose their way of life. The idea behind this comic, though, just like the Minique one earlier, is that women are made to WANT specific choices. The fembots were exposed to images of a happy life with pretty background music that depended on them being what they are "expected" to be. When Curly put on the CD, virus or whatever, she was exposing them to very (perhaps far too much for Sinfest) uncomfortable truths that happen in consequence to adhering to that lifestyle, which made them want to rebel.

In other words, not rebelling against it is mostly based on ignorance, not impossibility.
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Smooshie



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
No. Female genital mutilation is different from circumcision in several ways. First, it's typically done to prevent women from enjoying sex. In most types of female genital mutilation the clitoris is cut off. Sometimes in a hospital, but most commonly without anesthesia, with a knife or scissors. In the most extreme forms of FGM a woman's clitoris, inner labia, and outer labia are cut off and the wounds are sewn shut, leaving a small hole for urine and menstrual blood to leak out. Then, when she gets married, her husband cuts her open. Literally.


Well... why do you think the sons of Abraham had to have their foreskin removed? The big guy didn't want them to enjoy spanking it, and they were also supposed to look different from the men who did not share their religious beliefs.

And yes, it's atrocious, but I said men have it better in that regard anyway. Either way, I don't think either is okay, and while one is more brutal than the other, I get a little miffed that everyone kind of just lampshades circumcision simply because it's not as bad.

EDIT:
Leohan wrote:

Kinda simple, actually. We do know that women, just like men, are free to choose their way of life. The idea behind this comic, though, just like the Minique one earlier, is that women are made to WANT specific choices.


Aaaah. I had an inkling that you were talking about something like this, but I wasn't sure. That makes sense.
Don't tell anyone, but I'm starting to like you, 'cause you're helpful and stuff Embarassed
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Last edited by Smooshie on Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LadySunami wrote:
The question is, how do we stop genital mutilation without having people jump down our throats for religious suppression? We get enough harassment for things that don't actually suppress religious practices, like allowing civil same sex marriages and teaching evolutionary biology in school.

To me, that's easy. Your religious freedom ends where all of my rights begin, just like, as the saying goes, your right to swing your fist ends where the other guy's nose begins. You can raise your child any way you like, but you aren't free to treat their body any way you like. This is obviously applied inconsistently, though, as with the case of religious objections to medical treatment, blood transfusions, etc. But the legal framework exists.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smooshie wrote:
Dogen wrote:
No. Female genital mutilation is different from circumcision in several ways. First, it's typically done to prevent women from enjoying sex. In most types of female genital mutilation the clitoris is cut off. Sometimes in a hospital, but most commonly without anesthesia, with a knife or scissors. In the most extreme forms of FGM a woman's clitoris, inner labia, and outer labia are cut off and the wounds are sewn shut, leaving a small hole for urine and menstrual blood to leak out. Then, when she gets married, her husband cuts her open. Literally.


Well... why do you think the sons of Abraham had to have their foreskin removed? The big guy didn't want them to enjoy spanking it, and they were also supposed to look different from the men who did not share their religious beliefs.

And yes, it's atrocious, but I said men have it better in that regard anyway. Either way, I don't think either is okay, and while one is more brutal than the other, I get a little miffed that everyone kind of just lampshades circumcision simply because it's not as bad.

You also asked if female genital mutilation was "really that bad," which hopefully you realize now was kind of a stupid fucking question.
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Ibian



Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 182

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do we care at all that a disproportionate amount of feminist women end up alone and childless?
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ibian wrote:
Do we care at all that a disproportionate amount of feminist women end up alone and childless?

Cite your sources, beanbag.

Although I'm currently alone and childless and loving it, so maybe they have a good thing going for them.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 5896
Location: California

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that would be an interesting contention to back up with say some numbers
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Ibian



Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 182

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No official numbers because America. Just look around and maybe think a bit about what a man is looking for when setting out to find a mother for his child.

Also check the fertility rates around the world.


Last edited by Ibian on Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so you're just talking out your ass then

okey dokey
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Smooshie



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
Posts: 141
Location: NYC

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:

You also asked if female genital mutilation was "really that bad," which hopefully you realize now was kind of a stupid fucking question.

I guess I was unsuccessfully attempting to reframe it because genital mutilation is genital mutilation, whether it's a punishment or a rite of passage, regardless of anesthetization.

I apologize.
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