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Feminism because why not make a thread for it?
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Arkhron



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand just for the lulz!

http://9gag.com/gag/6632846
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitness tips for women! I don't know why he was worried about offending anyone... he's just making vast generalizations about women based on anecdotal experiences. That's the scientific method, isn't it?*







* No. It is not. Just to be clear.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:

But I really can't take someone seriously when they try to suggest that all parents should have enough time to spend with their children.

That's just plain privileged bullshit.


I've seen neglected kids with my own eyes. That's how I know I'm right.


i know i'll be sorry for following up on this, but i really can't wrap my mind about it.

when you see the word "should" - are you interpreting that to mean that we want all parents to be compelled to spend time with their children? because that's the only way it makes sense, that you see it as a burden the privileged among us want to add to the problems of the poor. (btw - you would have saved yourself a lot of pain if you had said "poor" instead of "blue collar". not all blue collar workers are poor, nor are all poor people blue collar workers.)

anyway - i read that sentence as "in an ideal world, all parents would have time to spend with their children." of course, i am sure your response to this will be to tell me to learn to read.

but your sentence about neglected kids....no one is saying there are no neglected children. but you seem to be saying that it is right and proper that there be neglected children, and it is privileged bullshit to believe otherwise. which, honestly, strikes me as privileged bullshit. i would guess most people here would think the world would be a lot better if there were no neglected children. if all parents had enough time, because they made enough money, to spend time with their kids. if no one was forced to neglect them.

but i await your interpretation.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you really have seen neglected children with your own eyes then one would think you'd understand where we're coming from when we say that demanding parental consent in all cases for all children isn't such a good idea...
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Thy Brilliance wrote:

But I really can't take someone seriously when they try to suggest that all parents should have enough time to spend with their children.

That's just plain privileged bullshit.


I've seen neglected kids with my own eyes. That's how I know I'm right.


i know i'll be sorry for following up on this, but i really can't wrap my mind about it.

when you see the word "should" - are you interpreting that to mean that we want all parents to be compelled to spend time with their children? because that's the only way it makes sense, that you see it as a burden the privileged among us want to add to the problems of the poor. (btw - you would have saved yourself a lot of pain if you had said "poor" instead of "blue collar". not all blue collar workers are poor, nor are all poor people blue collar workers.)

anyway - i read that sentence as "in an ideal world, all parents would have time to spend with their children." of course, i am sure your response to this will be to tell me to learn to read.


That's a weird reading. Seems pretty obvious that he is using "should" in the sense of expectation. As in: every person has enough time to spend with their children on this, there is no legitimate reason that one does not. (anyone who thinks they don't just isn't being efficient or such.) From what I understand Thy thinks that we all think that "having time to spend with your children on this" doesn't require any sacrifice.

which is admittedly a pretty privileged position. I pointed out that nobody actually said or believed it, but whatever.

I still don't understand why this means it's a good idea to then force that shit on people.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm not trying to force people to spend time with their kids. i understand that some people do have to work 2+ jobs just to keep a roof over their heads, and so they don't have a lot of time to spend with their family.

but i think that's a bad thing.

i think everyone should have a job that pays enough that they can live off of just one. i think everyone should have access to decent health care. i think everyone should have access to equal justice.

and yeah, i think they should have time to spend with their kids.


just because it's not currently possible for everyone, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be.

wait - which was the weird reading, the 1st or the 2nd? "should" can be used as a sort of imperative: "you should go to the doctor about that cough" (not quite an order, but pretty insistent) or as more a speculative "i should really clean up my computer hard drive" (it would be a good thing to do, but it may or may not happen). i am interpreting "parents should have time with their kids" with the 2nd usage; i'm wondering if thy is using the first. because otherwise - having time with your kids is privileged bullshit? don't poor parents want to spend time with their kids? wouldn't they do it if they could? is it right that they don't have that time? is it wrong to say it would be a good thing if they did? because that seems to be thy's interpretation.

then again...thy.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:


wait - which was the weird reading, the 1st or the 2nd? "should" can be used as a sort of imperative: "you should go to the doctor about that cough" (not quite an order, but pretty insistent) or as more a speculative "i should really clean up my computer hard drive" (it would be a good thing to do, but it may or may not happen). i am interpreting "parents should have time with their kids" with the 2nd usage; i'm wondering if thy is using the first. because otherwise - having time with your kids is privileged bullshit? don't poor parents want to spend time with their kids? wouldn't they do it if they could? is it right that they don't have that time? is it wrong to say it would be a good thing if they did? because that seems to be thy's interpretation.

then again...thy.


No no, both are weird readings. It's not imperative or speculative, it's expectation. It's the normative almost. Every parent has time to spend with his children. If a parent doesn't do it it's a moral failing on their part, excuses aren't valid.

That's what Thy thought the idea was. And I sorta get why he would think so. He tried to make the point that parents sometimes lack time and made it badly, so much so that the responses could be interpreted as saying that parents never lack time.


Quote:
i'm not trying to force people to spend time with their kids. i understand that some people do have to work 2+ jobs just to keep a roof over their heads, and so they don't have a lot of time to spend with their family.

but i think that's a bad thing.

i think everyone should have a job that pays enough that they can live off of just one. i think everyone should have access to decent health care. i think everyone should have access to equal justice.

and yeah, i think they should have time to spend with their kids.


just because it's not currently possible for everyone, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be.


Oh sorry, that last bit was directed at Thy. The forcing being having parents involved in the matter of abortion and that. Which was the original point I believe before we started talking about blue-collar workers and travel times.
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Canopus



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I figured as much. But we would have to hear it from him.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

to move past the latest thytastrophe...

i've been reading Why Have Kids? by Jessica Valenti. the discussions of the experiences of women who choose not to have children were of particular interest to me. i have a friend who has made that very choice and has to endure condescending exhortations from her family about how she just doesn't understand herself and she doesn't realize that she actually does want kids and someday she'll get it. and given her career, children probably would be an impediment, so i can see why she'd make that choice. (besides which having kids is fucking terrifying and i can see why anyone would make that choice)

when she says she's made up her mind that she doesn't want kids and they would interfere with her plans for her life, the common retort she gets is that she's 20 and she's too young and immature to know that when she's older she will totes want kids for serious. which is condescending and all, but i can't help but think there's something to it. i mean, it's not like i was particularly mature and able to rationally evaluate my life at 20, nor do i really feel like i've made leaps and bounds 5 years later. how do i know i won't want kids five or ten years from now? how does she know?

on the other hand, how much of my seeing something to that is just due to the fact that i'm a dude? 'cuz if i choose not to start a family, society will never judge me for it the same way it would judge a woman. if i do get married and have children, society won't bat an eye if i'm the one who advances my career while my wife shoulders most of the work of raising the children. no one will expect me to put my career on hold or try to balance work and family. if i do that, it won't be driven by the guilt and shame that come with an overarching social narrative that tells me i must do these things or else my child will turn out to be a dysfunctional crack-addicted welfare queen psychopath failure and it will be all my fault.

so i guess i'm having a hard time seeing through my own privilege on this.


Last edited by ShadowCell on Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
when she says she's made up her mind that she doesn't want kids and they would interfere with her plans for her life, the common retort she gets is that she's 20 and she's too young and immature to know that when she's older she will totes want kids for serious. which is condescending and all, but i can't help but think there's something to it.

There may well be; speaking for myself, my priorities sure as hell changed between my twenties and today. In fact, my "magic" year seems to have been 30; the idea of settling down and raising a family suddenly had a lot of appeal, and the idea of being alone for the rest of my life was suddenly kind of terrifying--a complete 180į turn from my viewpoint in my twenties. I was also suddenly on all sorts of blood pressure medication, and a psychologist finally figured out that I had epilepsy, not ADD or BPD or some other alphabet-buzzword-soup to match the current fad in head-tapping, all of which medications may have had a significant impact on how I was looking at things. It certainly took me many walks down to the riverside park to watch the ducks dance as sunset's light played on the water before I came to terms with what was going on with my health.

But note that I said there only "may" be something to these claims your friend is embattled with. It took me a while to grow up; she may well have grown up faster and I know of nothing that would cause me to doubt that she knows her own mind best.

There's another side to be considered here, though. (Gods, it's going to sound like I'm suddenly spouting the same bullshit I've been denouncing all day! Ladies, I think I'm going to need your help with this, please?)
As an observer, I have seen what seems to be the "biological clock" at work. Many women I have known have, upon reaching their thirties or thereabouts, suddenly begun placing a strong emphasis on finding a committed partner and raising a family. I'll only state that I've seen this happen, and I'm not going to speculate on why it happened the times I've seen it. Somebody is likely to suggest that it is a hormonally triggered urge to reproduce. Maybe so, but, when I go Googling for "changes in sexual behavior in women thirty and older," I turn up a lot of stuff about early-onset menopause, hormone replacement therapy, and so much hoaky new age bs that I've got to go rinse the sickeningly sweet saccharine taste out of my mouth. So I haven't found any respectable evidence, yet, that what I would call a biological clock is actually happening due to biological causes.

The next obvious culprit, if it's not actual biology driving "biological clock" type of behavior, looks like social conditioning, I'm afraid. And, this late at night, and as tired as I am after wrapping up our show, tonight, I really don't think I can stomach doing the research and wading through the sluggish, fuggish, open sewers of prime, aged bullshit in order to dig out citations that will pretty much say what we've learned to expect from the bio-based gender gap camp.

So, I'm looking for some help, here. Ladies, in your own experiences, hve you bumped into this "biological clock?" Is it real and does it influence your actions and choices? Whence doth it come? Is it really something inside, hormonally driven? Or is it the weight of society's expectations being brought ruthessly to bear on a young woma. (And, if so, how much of that extortion is from men and from the Patriarchy--no-one give me shit about using Tat's term; we all know what he's talking about--and how much is from female relatives, particularly older female relatives, wanting you to follow in their footsteps. Perhaps convincing you to make the same choices they made is somehow supposed to validate those choices for them?

ShadowCell wrote:
so i guess i'm having a hard time seeing through my own privilege on this.

I'm in the same boat, amigo; let's ask the ladies! At the very least, we'll get a chance to hear what life's like without the cloak of privilege, and, we may hear some good suggestions for actions to take and wise-sounding words to speak as we guide our own kids through this part of their lives and how to cope with the expectations constantly rained down upon them by (usually) well-intentioned busy-bodies.
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm about turn 29 and I used to always think that I wanted kids. As I get older, the concept of doing it is just fucking terrifying. This is not hysterical at all when I realize that I ran off a couple of boyfriends due to me insisting that I wanted kids.

I've hung around enough kids to know how hard it is. My brother was born when I was 10 so I did a lot of that hard work. Now I teach martial arts to kids and some of them are great and some of them make me want to rip my ovaries out. I am always happy to send them home. And I even like babies! I think they are cute and adorable and I like holding them!

I guess the only thing that scares me is being old and alone with no family to visit. The concept of a big family sounds cute but too hard. I have just been putting it all off.

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zeezee



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

las has asked me to weigh in on this topic.

my mother was horrified when i told her (when i was in high school) that i was not going to have kids. she insisted that i would change my mind eventually. i knew then that kids do not have any attraction for me. the younger of my brothers was born when i was eight, and i had no interest in him. his crying made me want to flee. i didn't even like to play with baby dolls.

fast forward to my mid-twenties. my mother told me that it was time to get married and start having kids. i was not dating anyone seriously at that time - was i just supposed to produce someone who was husband material and force him to pop the question? (found out much later that she had started buying baby clothes and baby furniture in anticipation of my producing grandchildren. jesus, mom - psycho much?)

by my early thirties, i was a bit panicky about wanting to get married - not because i wanted kids, but because i wanted a partner to share my life with. i did think at the time that it was inevitable that kids would happen, but whenever i imagined having them, my thoughts uniformly turned to worrying about how i would go find someone else to take care of them while i worked - i did not enjoy any pleasant thoughts about having children. looking back, i do think it was hormonal - "the selfish gene" tells us that nature will do whatever it takes to get us to reproduce.

by mid-to-late 30s, i started getting comfortable with myself and my life as it was. i realized that the push to get married was just a fear of being alone, of being out of the mainstream. i recognized that i had always been there, and that it was no different than my life had been all along. a niece and a nephew came along, but still no interest in kids.

my 40s and 50s have been a revelation - it seems to me that most people are pretty miserable in marriage by this time of life, but they have circumstances that keep them there, or else they break out of the marriage, leaving plenty of collateral damage in their wake. still no regrets about not having kids.

now, at 59, i would welcome some regular company, but i am not certain that marriage is for me. i have lived alone for over 35 years, and it is a very peaceful and drama-free life. i have proceeded with the assumption that i would need to provide for myself in life, and have done so.

so far, so good. hope this helps - sorry for the length...

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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I knew you would have something awesome to say! Thank you so much for weighing in. Also, your mom sounds crazy. I am very lucky that my mom is totally not into that whole pressure for grand kids thing.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never wanted kids at age 16, when everybody just laughed and rolled their eyes at me. I never wanted kids at 20 when everyone just told me 'it'll come' and described this force of fucking nature that would apparently make me want to pop babies out the instant I hit late twenties. I never wanted kids at 24 when people still insisted I don't know my own mind.

I thought maybe kids wouldn't be quite so bad (when I'm older not right away, of course) at 25 when I dated someone manipulative enough to change my mind.

I don't want kids at 28 because I'm pretty convinced I'd be forced to go it alone. The only person I could imagine doing something like that with turned out to be a liar and a cheater and now I'm not convinced I could ever trust someone else enough to help with a baby I would feel 100% responsible for.

I don't like babies and I never have. I didn't like children when I WAS one and that hasn't changed (with a few notable exceptions, but even then I can only take them in small doses and I'm absolutely terrible around anyone younger than 9 even if they are a good kid).

Plus like, shit, do you know how much money they cost? A lot.

Mostly people don't ask anymore because friends and coworkers keep assuming I'm younger than I am and I don't visit relatives as often as I used to.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm one of those people that changed. Somewhere around 25 the idea of marriage went from seeming improbable (how could a relationship possibly last that long?) to possible and desirable. I still don't know how probable they are to work "forever," but the idea of being with one person for the rest of my life seems nice.

I've never really wanted kids, but that's mainly because I have some shitty genes. Diabetes, MS, bad eyesight... that's a lot to throw at a kid. I might adopt, though.
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